Don’t be denied.

If you haven’t read the Wall Street Journal’s latest article on oversigning, by all means do so.  Although the authors have an agenda (scare quotes come fast and furious), they still do a good job of illustrating a number of troubling issues on both sides of the matter.

  1. Oversigning has a new poster boy, and his name is Steve Spurrier. I don’t know what the Ole Ball Coach thought he was doing by agreeing to the interview, but it wasn’t the smartest decision he’s made.  From advising the Big Ten that its oversigning policy is a mistake to admitting that he did a poor job of managing the number of commitments in this year’s class, he sounds like a man stubbornly pursuing a policy he knows isn’t quite right.  It’s hard to come off sounding worse on an ethical subject than Houston Nutt and Bobby Petrino, but Spurrier manages it.
  2. What we got here is… failure to communicate. One reason Nutt and Petrino come off relatively better is that they’re both aware enough of the consequences of not letting the recruits know how the numbers game was shaping up.  Spurrier either didn’t know or didn’t care, which is how you wind up with a recruit’s coach saying the following:  “I told them this was foul. I didn’t have a clue until 18 hours before signing day, and if they say anything else, they’re lying.” Note that Spurrier didn’t rebut that.  It may be that he’s getting close enough to the end of his career that pissing off high school coaches doesn’t matter to him (compare that to how Richt responded when the coach at Carver Columbus banned Georgia in the wake of a recruiting snafu), but it’s not a smart tactic over the recruiting long haul.
  3. How ’bout them Southern high schools! It gets somewhat brushed over and hinted around – Spurrier makes the only quasi-direct observation – but it’s plain that one of the big engines driving oversigning is the poor education that many, many recruits receive in high school.  Take a look at education rankings for the 50 states; it’s not a place where the South shines particularly.  Petrino may come off as a cold, calculating SOB with his class signing formula, but, sadly, it’s a formula born from experience.
  4. “If they’re adamant about going to that school, they’re gonna go anyway.” The authors try to soft sell it, but it’s apparent from the recruits’ quotes that most coaches are informing recruits and their parents when numbers are tight and what the results from that could be.  It takes two to tango.  If a recruit knows the risks and still wants to commit, where should the conference or the NCAA draw the line?
  5. It’s gonna be a fight. Three coaches are willing to go on record to defend a practice which they know will be portrayed in an unfavorable light.  That should give you some indication about how strongly they feel about maintaining the opportunity to oversign.  Somehow I doubt they’re going to back down at the SEC Spring Meetings.  Or that they’re the only three who support the practice.  It’s going to be bruising and the press will be watching.  Mike Slive will have his hands full.

*******************************************************************

UPDATE: Chip Towers, who’s done an excellent job with the Lorenzo Mauldin story, has a follow up that illustrates Point #4 perfectly.

Lorenzo Mauldin is still not sure what he’s going to do, but he’s starting to feel better about his options. The Maynard Jackson High defensive end and longtime South Carolina commitment, who was stuck without a scholarship after the Gamecocks oversigned on national signing day, is now heavily considering an offer from Louisville.

Cardinals’ second-year coach Charlie Strong has offered to bring in the 6-foot-4, 240-pound defensive end as a non-qualifer if he continues to come up short on his test scores, according to Mauldin. That means Mauldin would have to pay his own way the first year but would have three years of eligibility remaining and a qualify for a fourth if he’s on track to graduate.

“That’s a pretty good option for me,” Mauldin said Monday. “I believe it’s better than prep school. I’ll already be there with the team and I could be playing football the next fall.”

He thinks he’s got the money to cover tuition, too.  But, guess what?  He’d rather wait and see if he can qualify so that… well, you can probably figure out the rest of the story.

… Meanwhile, Miami and Troy continue to recruit Mauldin and prep school remains a possibility. But clearly he would prefer to stick with his first option, which is to meet freshman eligibility requirements by spring and force the Gamecocks to find room for him…

Except, par for the course with Mauldin’s tale, that’s not the whole story.

“It’s all based on the score,” said Mauldin, who said he is awaiting an ACT score and will take the test at least one more time. “I see that I’m so close on these scores, I feel sure I’m going to get it. If I do get the score I hope [South Carolina's] word is good and I get the scholarship.”

South Carolina signed 32 players in its 2011 football recruiting class. Four of those recruits enrolled in January and will count toward the 2010 class. But that still leaves them three over the NCAA maximum of 25 that can be added to the scholarship roll this fall.

Mauldin said Gamecocks assistant coach Lorenzo Ward promised him the football program would find room if he qualified.

“He said if I get the score I will get the scholarship from one of the other boys who won’t academically qualify,” Mauldin said. “He tells me that’s his word. A man’s word is his bond, so I’m hoping that will be carried out.”

What’s that old expression about writing checks with your mouth that your ass can’t cash?  If all three of those recruits qualify, I can’t wait to see what Ward comes up with.

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81 Comments

Filed under Recruiting, SEC Football

81 responses to “Don’t be denied.

  1. Bulldog Joe

    Look at it this way,

    When you have 20-25 guys who would not normally qualify as students at your institution and you have an administration who supports what you are doing, you have a lot of flexibility after spring practice and summer workouts in determining who academically “qualifies” and who does not.

  2. Point No. 4 is, I think, the primary reason I haven’t been able to get as worked up as others about the oversigning issue. Nutt’s reputation for oversigning is clear, and obviously he’s not the only one. But kids still sign there. Schools recruiting against Ole Miss (and South Carolina, and Arkansas, etc.) should be using the “Be careful about signing with ____ — they might dump you if they have to” meme against them, and in theory, the market will adjust to such a practice. (Of course, it doesn’t really work that way if Ole Miss, South Carolina, Arkansas, etc., are all battling for the same kids.)

    Regardless of how much we should be protecting 18-year olds from themselves in this process — and I do think we should do something, even if a) I don’t totally know what, and b) I don’t feel as strongly about this as others — it’s hard to create an effective rule when the kids might turn around and attempt to go to these schools regardless.

    • Texas_Dawg

      it’s hard to create an effective rule when the kids might turn around and attempt to go to these schools regardless

      That’s not true. The Big 10 has no oversigning problem.

  3. hodgie

    Point 3 is not even close to true. “One of the big engines driving oversigning is the poor education that many,many recruits are receiving.” HOGWASH! The quality of education is just as high as anywhere else in America. What about being from the south makes their education different from any other region? Are teachers in the south not as proficient in their fields? Just because test scores may be lower in the south does not mean the quality of education they received was bad. Could it be that the receivers of that education have something to do with that?

    • Gravidy

      Breathless responses coming in 3…2…1…

    • Go Dawgs!

      Precisely. There are some bad schools out there. Not just in the south, either. But look at where some of the non-qualifiers are coming from. They’re not all coming out of “All The Children Are Left Behind” high schools. It’s about the “student”-athlete. I knew more than one blue-chipper in high school (I went to a baseball powerhouse, but I’m sure the same holds true for football) who thought they were going to coast through on sports alone and who frankly didn’t give a damn about school until it was too late to get the numbers. And for the kids who genuinely are trying, it’s not just about the school for them, either, it’s also about the home life and whether the family is involved with their education, and whether they have been for the long haul.

  4. crapsandwich

    Just another great oversigning piece for Georgia and Florida to put in their respective recruiting manual, to show high school coaches and recruits.

    This whole issue really benefits Georgia for its strong stance. With McGarity at the forefront, and the media slowly becoming more enthralled with oversigning, let the cast of characters defend themselves.

    This issue will not be solved entirely and makes the Nutts, Saban, Petrino and Spurrier of the world look like scum. Perception is often 90% of the preception in sales, and selling is what the recruiting process is about.

    • Texas_Dawg

      There will always be plenty of recruits that don’t care.

      They get 1,000 different voices in their ear, many have terrible adult advisors (as the article makes clear), and they are up against powerful pros.

      Many people around the country realize Nutt, Petrino, Saban et al. are scum. But it’s the “same old SEC.” And “Georgia” gets lumped right in with that.

  5. Robert

    Nice Neil Young shoutout.

  6. Mike

    I am of the opinion that transparancy is the best regulator. If the coaches disclose it and recruits know it, then I say no harm no foul.

    • Texas_Dawg

      How would you know when coaches are properly disclosing it? How would you know when recruits and their families fully understand all the risks?

      • How would you know when coaches are properly disclosing it? How would you know when recruits and their families fully understand all the risks?

        The first sentence is something that makes sense. There needs to be a mechanism in place to provide full transparency and disclosures from coaches to families. I think we all agree on that one.

        With that in mind, your second sentence is complete BS. If not obvious from my screen name, I’m an external auditor. I’m not responsible if the company I’m auditing makes stupid business decisions or it’s investors make stupid investments given the information available. All I can do is ensure that the stupid business decisions are properly disclosed (i.e. mechanism in place to provide information from coaches to kids/parents) to allow the investors to make stupid investing decisions. If coaches are upfront and transparent about their intentions with a kid regarding gray shirting, etc. – they have done their job. At some point, responsibility to make the decision transfers to the kid and parents once the information has been disclosed by the coaches. Call me libertarian or whatever, but as long as the proper information is available, at some point we have to stop passing the buck and take personal responsibility for our own decisions, whether they be investing or what college a kid chooses to attend.

        • Coastal Dawg

          I agree with you when it comes to the current signing class. My concern with transparcy solving the problem comes from existing athletes on scholarship. They don’t have any options or protection. Even if they had a hint their 1-year scholarship may not be renewed, what can they do about it? They can’t transfer without a release from their current school and potentially the loss of a year of eligibility.

          Transparency plus a hard signing limit each year keeps everyone honest. If a kid wants to go somewhere without a scholly as a walk on, so be it.

        • Texas_Dawg

          We’re talking about academic institutions. We’re talking about people that are often from communities that have been heavily marginalized by Southern institutions over numerous generations. 2011 and you and I didn’t pop out of a vacuum. The details matter.

          A lender aggressively pitching a loan with a 50% annual interest rate to an equally educated and affluent potential client is not the same as his doing so to a 75-year-old, poor, uneducated widow. The details matter.

          Greg McGarity specifically rejected the argument you are making just last week.

          • Let’s just say I disagree with you and I’m going to leave it at that. I’m not going to waste my time any longer on this.

            • Texas_Dawg

              OK.

              Hopefully you’ll join Greg McGarity in condemning the practice as morally reprehensible. I’m sure he’d appreciate it if more Georgia fans would quit opposing him on that.

              • Macallanlover

                I don’t know any that oppose a ban, or rigid numer to prevent oversigning, a no-brainer, imo. I can’t disagree with Audit about individual responsibility/accountability for 18 year olds. Time to man-up on that. But the school should have to take the first signed LOI’s they receive to recruits they made a firm, written, commitment to up to the point they hit their 85 limit. (That assumes there isn’t a breathing cap of 2-3 above that number allowed for ALL schools. I support some small number to allow for attrition/fallout.) Does that mean a few schools may be a little short? You bet, I much prefer that to what is going on. Just might improve the standards of recruiting.

  7. Texas_Dawg

    The authors try to soft sell it, but it’s apparent from the recruits’ quotes that most coaches are informing recruits and their parents when numbers are tight and what the results from that could be.

    Once again, you side with Nick Saban over Greg McGarity.

    Saban says this is all excused by an occasional mention of some grayshirt fine print. McGarity, putting it a lot more diplomatically (understandably) than he does off the record:

    “It’s a head-scratcher,” McGarity said. “I think the thing you focus on is, ‘What kind of conversation are you having with these young men and their parents up front? Are you making them aware of all the dynamics that could occur?’ I think the majority of the time that’s probably not the case.”

    You dug yourself a nasty hole, Senator. Buried yourself right in Nick Saban’s camp, in strong opposition to UGA officials. I can only guess that pride is what’s keeping you there now.

    • Dawgfan Will

      There’s a point when, no matter how right you may be, you start to erode support for your position because you keep insisting how right you are and how wrong others are.

      • Texas_Dawg

        Yep.

        There’s also a point when UGA bloggers should quit siding with Nick Saban and start siding with Greg McGarity and Mark Richt.

        Easy way to get to that point.

        • Macallanlover

          Amen. Doing the right thing shouldn’t be negotiable, and there is a clearly defined number that can be administered to.

  8. Pingback: Spurrier : Oversigning 'helpful' ... - HawkeyeNation Forum

  9. Senator, I think we’ve figured out what is this year’s version of the playoff debate. Instead of “if it was good enough for grandpa, it must be good enough for you”, now it’s “morally repugnant/supporters of Saban/against UGA”. Fun times.

    • Texas_Dawg

      You realize Greg McGarity has called it morally repugnant, right?

      • fuelk2

        I’m not sure if you’ve noticed, but UGA fans tend not to go along with something just because one of the leaders of our AA says it’s so. Ask Mark Richt how much weight his opinion has carried with our fanbase in the last couple of years.

        I’m not saying you’re wrong, but I am saying “Greg McGarity said so” doesn’t get you much mileage ’round here.

        • Texas_Dawg

          I know.

          Just making clear that the phrase is one used by public officials, not just anonymous message board posters.

          • Well, thank heavens for Greg McGarity! If it wasn’t for him, the mouthbreathers like me might actually think for ourselves on the situation. If he says it’s so, then it must be so. Thanks for showing me the light, TD.

            • Makes you wonder what kind of stern talking-to McGarity and Adams gave Mark Fox for clearing out some of Felton’s recruits to make room for new signees.

              • Texas_Dawg

                Hopefully they did. I hope UGA continues to go above and beyond what is necessary to avoid even the appearance of unethical behavior.

            • Texas_Dawg

              Well, thank heavens for Greg McGarity! If it wasn’t for him, the mouthbreathers like me might actually think for ourselves on the situation.

              Just pointing out someone who has studied the topic far longer and far more closely than you have.

      • Dawgfan Will

        I agree with you, dude, but you realize that McGarity probably only said that because he works at a university that doesn’t have to oversign to make up for a poor recruiting base, right? People in positions of power commonly take the moral high ground when it benefits them. I wonder if he would say the same thing if he worked at Alabama.

    • The weird thing is I can’t figure out what the argument is over. I admire Richt for the stance he’s taken and agree it’s morally reprehensible to screw kids over. Somehow that makes me a bad, bad man.

      • Babu

        A very, very bad man.

      • Texas_Dawg

        Not calling you a bad person. Just pointing out some of your recent posts (e.g. you initially said you saw no problem with what was done to Mauldin) are a lot closer to Alabama than Georgia.

        Like I’ve said, I think you dug a hole when it looked like this was just a B10 whining thing. Understandable. I, like most of us, was raised on “S-E-C! S-E-C!” as well.

        But the circumstances aren’t what they once appeared. And it turns out the UGA position is even far more aggressive than the Big 10′s. (No Big 10 officials have called the behavior “morally reprehensible” lately (or ever?), for example.)

        Nick Saban et al. thrive on “it’s very gray.” That is all they need from sportswriters, bloggers, and fans. “It’s very gray” is mission accomplished for them. Bernie Machen and Greg McGarity and others say it is very clearly unethical to let Nick Saban and powerful coaches exploit the ignorance and naivete of often very poor teenagers who can’t fully understand the risks of what they are getting into. They’ve made it very clear that there just really isn’t much, if any, gray here. They condemn the practice strongly and want it removed from the SEC.

        I think Georgia fans and bloggers should back Greg McGarity on this. He is fighting a difficult battle trying to change the status quo of a bad, bad situation that remains the way it is largely due to most people knowing very little about what’s going on.

        • … (e.g. you initially said you saw no problem with what was done to Mauldin)

          Actually, no.

          Generally speaking, it’s not a good sign when you make shit up to try to win an argument.

          • NRBQ

            Didn’t I read all this back-and-forth here yesterday?

          • Texas_Dawg

            This is what you said:

            If that’s how South Carolina handled things, I’m having a hard time seeing what’s wrong there.

            Um…

            • Well, other than sliding by that what you’ve quoted is a follow up (hint: that’s what “update” means) to a post that contained criticisms of South Carolina’s recruiting tactics and starts with that pesky “if” word, you’ve nailed it. Well done, sir.

              • Texas_Dawg

                Oh, jeez.

                Let’s make this a teachable moment, Senator.

                What would Greg McGarity, Bernie Machen, Mark Richt, and the numerous oversigning opponents in the game say to the South Carolina explanations you excerpted?

                I think they’ve made it very, very clear what they would say. They would say that what South Carolina did has no “if” that in any way makes the approach they took ethical. No spin that would cause them to say they have a hard time seeing what was wrong with how South Carolina coached behaved.

                So why then, instead of strongly condemning what was done, as many media members and others have, did you choose to say that you might not see anything wrong with what South Carolina did?

                • Dude, you’re not getting this. If you can’t quote me accurately, I’m not interested in debating you.

                  • Texas_Dawg

                    I copied that quote directly from the post. Not sure what you want.

                    • TD, I’ve tolerated your asshole-with-a-cause schtick as best I could. I’ve let you promote your own blog, harangue other posters here (all of whom have shown you more courtesy than you have shown) and repeat your three talking points ad nauseum. The only thing I’ve objected to is your deliberate distortion of my commentary to support your position.

                      An honest person would have responded with an apology for letting his passions get the best of him. A polite person would have at least apologized for offending his host. You’ve decided instead to play the obtuse card. It’s the first time you’ve claimed to be uncertain about anything you’ve posted here and it’s completely unconvincing.

                      I can’t make you be polite and I can’t make you argue more honestly. All I can do is start tossing comments of yours that cross the line, which is what I guess I’ll have to start doing. That’s a shame. As you can tell, I think this is an interesting debate. Too bad you’ve chosen to be a distraction.

                      There’s no need to respond to this. In fact, I’d prefer if you didn’t.

  10. Bryant Denny

    For the record, Mark Richt has also had greyshirt conversations with recruits.

    • fuelk2

      Acknowledging the obvious bias, I have no problem with that. I have a problem with a greyshirt conversation with a signee when that possibility has not previously been acknowledged.

      If a recruit signs knowing he may have to take a greyshirt, then I have trouble feeling bad for him when he does in fact get a greyshirt.

      • Texas_Dawg

        If a recruit signs knowing he may have to take a greyshirt, then I have trouble feeling bad for him when he does in fact get a greyshirt.

        This is like saying that if that elderly grandmother had a problem with the 50% annual interest rate mortgage that was aggressively pitched to her by trained professionals, she shouldn’t have signed the papers.

        Ethical institutions prevent their employees from entering into such negotiations.

        • fuelk2

          Well, it’s clear that we just have different views on disclosure as a remedy. I don’t think it’s necessary to legislate to ignorance or stupidity. The smart guy wins. That’s the way the world works.

          I personally think that making the information available in a clear and conspicuous manner is enough. To that end, I would have no problem in taking a look at the form national letter of intent to make it more clear what recruits are signing up for. Possibly looking into a different form when a greyshirt is on the table. To use your example, this would be similar to fair lending legislation.

          I do feel strongly that these young men should be able to make their own decisions, whether or not you or I think it’s fair.

          • Texas_Dawg

            You are right in that we have different views on disclosure.

            I would never pretend that an elderly grandmother or a poor 17-year-old is the exact equal of a powerful highly-experienced pro backed by a powerful institution. Nor would I pretend that such details don’t matter.

            I am very glad that University of Georgia leaders agree with me on this.

    • Texas_Dawg

      Which he shouldn’t. And I doubt he will be doing so in the future.

  11. shane#1

    So now it’s the fault of southern schools? Please! I have heard that point made by Tech fans untill I am sick of it, “we can’t recruit in Georgia because the schools are so lousy”. Bullshit! I know that some schools aren’t up to snuff, especially outside of metro Atlanta, but a kid that wants an education can get one, by, uh, working! Stop signing the kids that you know can’t qualify and guess what, the kids that are capable will do the work because they want to play football. Let’em skate and most kids won’t do the work. I want a commish with the guts to demand higher academic standards from the SEC schools, stop oversigning, and clean up the conference. How do you stop oversigning? Limit signings to 25, 28 if a team has the scholarships open. Do away with the grayshirt, if you don’t have a scholly for a kid he can walk on.

    • I don’t think you understand how bad rural Georgia schools tend to be. It’s not just about the kids who don’t qualify. My two daughters who attended UGA told me some pretty appalling stories about some of their classmates from south Georgia.

      • Macallanlover

        I wouldn’t limit it to rural schools, most public schools are very bad. Not limited to just the South either. I would cut it across economic lines, especially where there is a high incidence of absentee parenting/broken homes. Also, using test scores on SAT is very misleading for state and region comparisons. The differences aren’t as pronounced when only students who desire to attend college are used in the results. Then there is the validity of tests….and on and on. Generalizations look much different up close. Safe to say our education system is pathetic these days, and the decline mirrors our society.

      • shane#1

        I don’t know what you girls told you about students from rural Georgia but with the SAT scores and GPA it takes to be admitted to UGA today they couldn’t be that bad. As for not understanding how bad education in rural areas can be, well you are talking to a South Ga. country boy. Born and bred Sir! I have hoed weeds in cotton fields, I have pulled weeds in peanut fields and I have rounded up calves from a seat atop a quaterhorse in the freezing rain. I daresay I know more about rural Ga than you do because I have lived in rural Ga. for most of my 60 years. I believe in public education and I believe that kids will produce when production is demanded of them. Just as teachers and administrators will produce when we demand it of them. I do know this, a kid that wants an education can get one in a public school, if he wants to work. Academics of football players will improve when we demand higher standards. I am getting old Senator, and I know 90% of college football players will never make the NFL. Somebody has to pay for my medicare and social security.

        • shane, no offense was meant, so I apologize if that’s how my observation came across.

          Those kids I spoke of didn’t lack for work ethic, they were just poorly prepared for college. And were shocked when they found that out in Athens.

          As for scores, Georgia is the state’s flagship school. As such, there are certain political niceties which have to be observed. Put it this way – there’s a tilt in admissions to kids from private schools and schools from Atlanta’s northern suburbs. That tilt would be more pronounced but for a conscious effort to keep some balance, scores notwithstanding.

    • Texas_Dawg

      Even a simple limit of 25 allows a good amount of room for oversigning though.

      The best way to end this stuff is how the Big 10 does it. In the Big 10, teams can be oversigned by up to 3, but in order to be oversigned at all they must get permission from the conference which involves transparent explanations given to conference and other B10 school officials. Saying that a team expects some medical DQs or transfers or non-qualifiers doesn’t fly.

      So, because there is almost never a valid reason to be oversigned, Big 10 teams are almost never oversigned. Problem solved.

      • fuelk2

        Okay, let’s think about this. You say that in the big 10 expecting some non-qualifiers is not a valid reason to sign more kids than you have slots for. As a result, if one of your signees doesn’t qualify, you just have a scholly that won’t be used for that year, which is a situation that a coach would really hate to see.

        The result is that a school would only sign kids who they are damn sure can qualify. Those borderline kids do not get offers, which denies them even the possibility of attending the program they wish to attend.

        So, the effort to protect these poor, uneducated kids results in borderline kids not getting offers. In effect, that system might deny opportunities to the very group the rule is intended to protect.

        I know that may sound like a pro-Bama style argument, but that’s not the intent. The point is that no bright line rule will solve the issue. That’s the problem in regulating morality.

        • Texas_Dawg

          Many schools would still take risks on very talented players that aren’t academically qualified.

          The people that would replace the less talented unqualified players would be either: 1) 1-to-2-year walk-on awards with the rest of the 4-year scholarship being held open for the non-qualifier after he completes prep school/JUCO, and 2) other players from just as meager socioeconomic backgrounds who were slightly less athletically talented but academically qualified.

          Oversigning doesn’t provide more opportunity to disadvantaged student-athletes. It just allows more of them to be exploited, coaches to game the system, and all the rest of it.

          Bernie Machen and Greg McGarity didn’t wake up one day, decide to call this morally reprehensible, and decide to fight to get rid of it. They have studied the issue inside and out for years. There isn’t an argument you can make for keeping it that they haven’t heard. None of them hold up.

  12. almightytmc1

    Senator,
    I am a life long Alabama fan, Nevertheless, daily I come to your blog.
    The reason is simple. Your work is excellent, mostly unbiased and you have displayed fairness, and good common sense in the stories you covr. Its a bloody f*cking shame that more of the so-called “jounalists” out there cant be as professional as you.
    I am currently living in Australia, and reading your blog keeps me up to date on Football in the states. And brings me a little slice of home. Well done.

    • Texas_Dawg

      Ha. I swear I didn’t make a fake account and post this glowing review of Senator Blutarsky’s treatment of the topic from an Alabama fan. I promise.

  13. Texas_Dawg

    Adams took zero personal responsibility for Georgia’s most severe academic scandal in more than a decade, so spare me a defense of his goodness.

    Huh?

    Where did I say anything about his “goodness?” I simply pointed out that his response was very, very different than Alabama’s has been once its terrible behavior has been exposed.

    This really is pretty amazing though, Senator. You slam the UGA president, strongly disagree with Greg McGarity and Mark Richt on a serious issue facing the program and university, and constantly downplay the bad behavior of the oversigning officials that are screwing over UGA.

    Solid.

  14. RhymerDawg

    If you don’t want to argue with TD, Senator, then I can.

    @TD – Look, I understand that you agree with McGarity that this issue is morally repugnant. I also understand that you believe that anyone who takes less than a morally repugnant stance puts them in a shaky ethical ground. I even understand that you believe any statement contrary to the moral repugnant position stated by UGA is someone who is shaky on their commitment and fan-dom toward UGA. To a certain extent I agree.

    Nevertheless, what Senstor has been tried to explain to you is that despite the rally cry of UGA administration toward all things “morally repugnant, ” and your expectation of a hammer to fall upon those who purport oversigning, the reality of the situation is that a hammer will not fall.

    You are just going to have to realize that people are not going to take the strong stance you take toward “morally repugnant” and such. Their position is not an excuse of the behavior but is a difference of position on the endgame of what is “morally repugnant.” They have tried to explain to you that they agree that oversigning is morally repugnant but they are not willing to go to the lengths you are to hold all those oversigning accountable. There is no doubt that they agree that oversigning is wrong but their argument is that actual enforcement of the rule to prevent oversigning will not be probable and therefore the powers to be will not try their hardest to enforce it.

    The other issue you have is that you expect a rule which will legislate the morally repugnant. Laws do not regulate morality but live within morality. They cannot be both in the legal system and outside it. As a result, any law or rule cannot create or diminish morality. A law or rule cannot be good and create good. Rather it is the person acting in accordance with the law which is good. In other words, the person is good when he does what the law says. Adding needless restraints, in the form of new regulations, will only make it harder to be good. The reason oversigning is morally repugnant is that the people who do it are acting for their own selfishness. This selfishness is bad because it requires the person to act outside the law, and the spirit of the law.

    How much do you hold someone accountable for their actions? IOW, How much morality should exist within the realm of student-athlete recruitment? As much as possible, but in this situation no one from UGA can hold the culprits of oversigning morally responsible. We may demand they act morally responsible but it is their decision.

    In regards to the ability of one to understand the issues at hand, especially 18 year olds and their families, I would like to point out what Sun Tsu said about this issue. “”If words of command are not clear and distinct, if orders are not thoroughly understood, then the general is to blame.” So he started drilling them again, and this time gave the order “Left turn,” whereupon the girls once more burst into fits of laughter. Sun Tzu: “If words of command are not clear and distinct, if orders are not thoroughly understood, the general is to blame. But if his orders ARE clear, and the soldiers nevertheless disobey, then it is the fault of their officers.” The whole story is pretty awesome and illustrates the idea that responsibility is to be had for both sides but the goodness or badness, morality, of the situation depends upon how one acts with the information given.

    • Texas_Dawg

      They have tried to explain to you that they agree that oversigning is morally repugnant but they are not willing to go to the lengths you are to hold all those oversigning accountable.

      Not sure what you mean here. I haven’t argued with anyone who calls oversigning morally repugnant. My argument has been with people like Senator Blutarsky who regularly call obvious cases of it gray and unclear.

      The other issue you have is that you expect a rule which will legislate the morally repugnant. Laws do not regulate morality but live within morality. They cannot be both in the legal system and outside it. As a result, any law or rule cannot create or diminish morality. A law or rule cannot be good and create good. Rather it is the person acting in accordance with the law which is good. In other words, the person is good when he does what the law says. Adding needless restraints, in the form of new regulations, will only make it harder to be good.

      Sorry, but the Big 10 has a set of rules that prevent oversigning. There is no reason to think the same set of rules wouldn’t have the same effect in the SEC. (Greg McGarity supports the SEC having the same set of rules for this reason.)

    • Nice effort, Rhymer, but it’s a waste of bandwidth. Texas_Dawg is the Barry Goldwater of oversigning.

      • Texas_Dawg

        Just a UGA grad that sees how badly the school is getting screwed over, knows how pissed about it the school’s officials are from first-hand discussions, and knows that they can’t tell you what they really think of the practice as I, not being in their diplomacy-demanding public positions, can.

        If Alabama officials were caught breaking into UGA offices or bank accounts and stealing from the school (and for whatever reasons escaped prosecution), you’d flip. You wouldn’t seek to find the gray in the issue. And to the extent you did find any gray, you’d ask yourself why school officials were so very strongly condemning the theft as not at all gray, and most likely then adjust your position to be in line with theirs. You wouldn’t just say, “Yeah, Alabama officials broke into UGA offices and accounts and that kind of sucks, but that’s life and the Big 10 sucks so go Alabama in the bowl game.” No, you’d hope the whole place burns to the ground if Alabama officials simply looked at the thefts, told UGA officials to GFT, and carried on as usual. Rightfully so.

    • …I even understand that you believe any statement contrary to the moral repugnant position stated by UGA is someone who is shaky on their commitment and fan-dom toward UGA.

      Well stated, Rhymer. As the Senator said, it’s probably a waste of bandwidth but this is what bothers most of us about TD’s crusade here. Frankly, I don’t remember receiving a refund check for my Hartman Fund contribution the moment I didn’t immediately side with the greatness that is Greg McGarity’s stand against over signing and TD’s tacit endorsement. I don’t remember my alma mater rejecting my degrees or the athletic association telling me my fandom wasn’t wanted anymore. TD wants to draw absolutes about this situation (i.e. you are automatically less of a fan or an unethical person) if some of us so choose to exercise our God-given right to decide for ourselves if we want to support Greg McGarity on this or not. He needs to realize that a lot of people that contribute money and love Georgia football frankly couldn’t care less about this topic no matter how much he believes they should. It doesn’t make them any less a fan, just means that they care more about other things. And if he thinks that puts myself on shaky ethical ground, he can go eff himself as far as I’m concerned. My CPA license argues otherwise. Just my two cents.

      • Texas_Dawg

        Yuk, yuk.

        Of course you are free to disagree with UGA officials and strongly support Nick Saban and the Alabama officials giving the finger to McGarity and Richt.

        I’ve never said otherwise.

        Why a Georgia would want to do that is beyond me, but I’ve never said you don’t have the right to do that.

  15. TimRankine

    TexasDawg, you get in the way of your argument. Oversigning is a worthwhile topic to discuss, but you seem to be Overwrought and Outraged to an extent that I have to hit the mute button. I do have sympathy with your crusade, but I lose it very quickly because of your temperment. Can you see this yourself? A little moderation, dial back the attack mode, and you may find that you have more welcoming ears.

    • GreenDawg

      +1

      Out of curiosity Texas_Dawg, do you go by the name of FrodgieBoolatz on dawgpost? You guys would be friends.

    • Texas_Dawg

      Can you see this yourself?

      Of course.

      There are others out there doing the non-attack mode moderation thing, fortunately.

  16. crapsandwich

    Wow, now I know what it must be like in the NFL players vs. Owners meetings yesterday and today.

  17. Senator,
    One of the reasons I enjoy this blog is the varied topics you post on and the relative freedom to add to posts. Its at the end of a thread so since we touched on education several times I thought I might offer this. My boss and mentor at a construction and development company handed me a book with my laptop when he hired me to help run the rehab arm of his company. At one time we did more multifamily rehabs than anyone else in the southeast combined. A lot of those rehabs involved section 8 housing clients. He felt the book lent some important insight into who we were working with. Interesting read…Black American Students in An Affluent Suburb: A Study of Academic Disengagement (Sociocultural, Political, and Historical Studies in Education) by Dr. John Ogbu

  18. Texas_Dawg

    TD, I’ve tolerated your asshole-with-a-cause schtick as best I could. I’ve let you promote your own blog, harangue other posters here (all of whom have shown you more courtesy than you have shown) and repeat your three talking points ad nauseum. The only thing I’ve objected to is your deliberate distortion of my commentary to support your position.

    An honest person would have responded with an apology for letting his passions get the best of him. A polite person would have at least apologized for offending his host. You’ve decided instead to play the obtuse card. It’s the first time you’ve claimed to be uncertain about anything you’ve posted here and it’s completely unconvincing.

    No, really, I have no idea what you are talking about. I’ve shown where you have repeatedly downplayed the issue, called it gray, and said where you have a hard time seeing the wrong being done in cases of oversigning. I didn’t deny or leave out the “if” of your South Carolina quote. It’s right there. I get it. You said “if” that’s what they did, you don’t see the problem.

    Which is exactly the point. What they did was very clearly wrong (and numerous media members have said as much), very much a typical, inescapable byproduct of oversigning, and there is no “if” that changes that, especially the “if” you cited.

    I get that you think I’m being an asshole. That’s fine. I find it assholeish that a widely-read Georgia blogger would continue to make post after post on the topic with comments clearly rejecting the position of Georgia officials, while clearly siding much closer (completely in some aspects) with the schools screwing over Georgia’s coaches, players, and officials.

    So here we are. It’s your blog, and you’re free to continue to aid the SEC West in this battle (as Alabama posters here have thanked you for) where Georgia officials are already outnumbered (within the SEC but very clearly not beyond it). And you’re free to delete comments that don’t go along with you on that.

    Personally, I don’t see why you wouldn’t want to just figure out where you went wrong and thus be able to get behind Mark Richt and UGA officials and out of Nick Saban’s camp on the issue, and thus in the future be able to strongly condemn the practice as Richt and others at UGA do, but for whatever reasons, that’s not the route you want to go.

    • Dog in Fla

      “rejecting the position of Georgia officials”

      I always thought that, and rejecting the position of others, were the fun things about GTP.

      “Personally, I don’t see why you wouldn’t want to just figure out where you went wrong”

      Because he doesn’t think he is wrong:

      Yesterday -
      “The weird thing is I can’t figure out what the argument is over. I admire Richt for the stance he’s taken and agree it’s morally reprehensible to screw kids over.”

      Day Before Yesterday -
      “Why isn’t it enough that I condemn screwing kids and urge that coaches be made to get their collective acts together?”

    • Dude let it go. I thought this thread was over several posts ago……then my youngest son texts me that you are still after it. Banzai! He has already figured you out and he is just a Freshman. We certainly got the mileage out of it though. Thanx!