You can lead a horse to water…

We’ve heard about Lorenzo Mauldin walking away from Gamecock limbo and signing with Louisville, but what about his cohort Jordan Montgomery?  Chip Towers tells us Montgomery still likes the cut of Spurrier’s jib.

… The other one was linebacker Jordan Montgomery of Groveland, Fla., whose coach at South Lake High, Walter Banks, was furious about South Carolina’s treatment of his player. I called down there this week to find out if there had been any developments in Montgomery’s recruitiment.

“At this point it looks like him and his family are going to still be going to South Carolina or to prep school,” said South Lake assistant coach Terrance Larmond, who handles recruiting at the school. “I can’t understand it myself, but that’s apparently his intention. He had an offer from Temple but he turned it down.”

Skip past the part about turning down the opportunity to play for Steve Addazio.  Here’s a kid and his family who clearly know where he’s at in the process.  It’s not like he hasn’t gotten an earful from his high school coaches about how dastardly he’s been treated by South Carolina, either.  Despite all of that, he hasn’t wavered.  And I presume that South Carolina still wants him in one form or fashion.  That sounds like your basic meeting of the minds; may they both wind up happy with that call.

So exactly what’s the point of the SEC or the NCAA stepping in and interfering with that by changing the signing rules?  I hope it’s something more than “we think it’s for your own good”, because if there’s one thing I can say about both organizations, that’s not usually whose good they have in mind when it comes to making rules and decisions.

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29 Comments

Filed under Recruiting

29 responses to “You can lead a horse to water…

  1. bigeasydawg

    That’s bad logic. Using one example of a kid knowing his situation and accepting it, doesn’t account for the other situations where they get jerked around.
    Also, just because someone accepts being treated badly doesn’t make it okay. There are lots of laws in society designed for the purposes “their own good”. Sometimes they’re bad laws (some drug laws), sometimes they’re good (some drug laws).
    I’m neutral on oversigning right now and I’m looking for someone to convince me to go to one side or the other. This doesn’t convince.

    • I’m not trying to convince you that regulating the abuses we all read about isn’t worthwhile. I’m simply pointing out that taking a one-size-fits-all approach may not be the best way to address those.

      • bigeasydawg

        I don’t really understand what the alternative is. Most rules and laws generally have to be one size fits all. I’m not debating this question, I’m asking it. They can’t make independent decisions about each case so what’s your alternative.

        The way I see it, either you have a rule against oversigning players or you don’t. If some players that would have gray shirted at their dream school don’t get to go to it. That’s too bad (honestly). But lots of kids that grow up in Birmingham don’t get to play for Bama, so they’ll survive.

        • I guess it depends on your approach. I’d at least like to see the SEC takes steps to regulate disclosures about the nature of the offer so that a kid and his family have a clear understanding of where he stands before NSD.

          Or maybe the other way of saying it is that I disagree with your last point if the kid knows what he’s getting into and is willing to commit to the school anyway.

          • bigeasydawg

            I hear ya. Again kind of like I said in the reply to the next comment, I don’t know who you legislate that. If I could be sure that a player knew his status before signing, I wouldn’t have a problem with it. The solution I’ve always been a supporter of is the early signing period. I think that solves so many recruiting problems. I don’t think it would solve oversigning or having your offer yanked at the last minute, but it’s the solution that wouldn’t radically alter the landscape but would lessen a lot of problems.

            • I agree with you on the early signing period, although I think I’m even more radical than that. I’d allow schools to sign players at any time.

              In the absense of that, one possible approach would be to cap signings, but allow players who sign an informed acknowledgement to opt out of the cap, so that someone like Montgomery could wait on the school he wants until he qualifies and a slot is available.

              • Texas_Dawg

                In the absense of that, one possible approach would be to cap signings, but allow players who sign an informed acknowledgement to opt out of the cap, so that someone like Montgomery could wait on the school he wants until he qualifies and a slot is available.

                Like that wouldn’t be just as easy for powerful pros up against teenagers to exploit.

                Why not just have complete transparency on scholarship numbers and cap signings at the number that with the returning scholarships would total 85?

      • Texas_Dawg

        What does that even mean?

    • SC Dawg

      I think this example implies we need rules that require coaches to make the recruiting process more transparent. One example I haven’t heard yet is the comparison to the college application process. When I was applying to school, there were numerous universities who required you to lock in your commitment to them when you applied. In essence, you were at their mercy until they rendered a decision. If accepted, I was required to attend that school. If I was denied, I was left to search for open spots at other schools. It’s kind of like Nick Saban and Paul Johnson had a kid who decided to be a university president. My point is that I knew the score going into the process and if I didn’t like it then I applied to other schools, but it was still my choice whether or not I wanted to lock myself into a commitment.

      • bigeasydawg

        I see your point and transparency is never a bad thing. For example, I don’t think Nick Saban is one of the “evil” oversigners (the ones that lie and manipulate). I think he’s probably fairly honest to the kids (from what I’ve heard) when he signs em. But his stonewalling about answering questions about the process makes him the face of oversigning.

        I really wouldn’t have a problem with knowing that a kid knew the drill when he signed but accepted it. I just don’t know how to legislate that.

        • SC Dawg

          Yeah it always seems like the best solutions are the hardest to put into law. I was never a NCAA recruit but I have to assume they already utilize or have the ability to utilize a online recruit database. This database could require schools to register when they’ve contacted a recruit and update once they’ve sent them the necessary disclosures. As well, the recruit would have to sign off that he’s received “The NCAA’s Warning Pamphlet on Oversigning by Jim Delaney.” I have no doubt the NCAA would never put this much effort in and so will end up finding an answer that upsets everyone.

          Sidenote to bigeasydawg: I’m headed down to New Orleans for a job search this weekend. Do you have any good recommendations for food? I’ve been to Dante’s Kitchen, Vincent’s, Cooter Brown’s, and Galatoire’s.

          • bigeasydawg

            Depends really on what you want. On the Galatoire’s level (price, food, atmosphere), you should try Antoine’s on St. Louis street in the quarter. It’s the oldest restaurant in the U.S. That’s sort of on the high end (although the high end in New Orleans isn’t too bad, especially for lunch).
            Other places you can try that are within walking distance to the quarter or are in the quarter are Mr. B’s, Dickie Brennan’s Palace cafe, Brennan’s, Dickie Brennan’s steakhouse (the brennans are a big restaurant family in new orleans, with two different branches that hate each other), Cochon, MILA, Bayona, the Rib Room, and so forth. I could really give you a lot more but those are good places. Those places above usually run $20-$60 a person for dinner. Prices tend to change according to whether it’s slow or busy and feb-may is the busiest time for tourists here (this weekend the ncaa’s are in town).
            If you’re looking for cheaper food around the quarter just look around. People will tell me I’m wrong, but when it comes to fried seafood, it’s basically all the same down here.
            If you have a car or wanna take the streetcar, there’s a lot of good places away from downtown. Commander’s Palace on the upscale end, Pascal Manale’s on the mid range, and lots of places along st. charles or magazine that are on the cheaper end like Joey K’s, Cheesecake Bistro, Voodoo BBQ. On oak st. in carrolton is a place called Jaquimo’s. It’s a very atmospheric place. Very fun new orleansy (you can reserve a table that’s in the back of an old truck off the sidewalk). It’s bound to be busy this time of year but if you don’t mind a wait for the experience, it’s a good place. Hope that helped!

            • SC Dawg

              Thanks! That definitely helped. My ladydawg just moved down there a few months back and she lives off St. Charles, so maybe we’ll stay around that area for restaurants. Jaquimo’s sounds awesome. Thanks again for your help!

          • bigeasydawg

            We have a guy on the radio that has a show about food in the afternoon everyday. He has a pretty informative website too. http://www.nomenu.com

            • bigeasydawg

              one more thing, this website’s done by a local and opposed to other guide’s you’ll find on nola food, he’s a journalist about it so he gives you an honest assessment. That’s why I recommended it. Sorry for clogging up your comments senator.

  2. Texas_Dawg

    Again, by the time his offer was pulled, he had long since effectively shut down his recruiting process and made his ties and friends at South Carolina. So his options were greatly limited after NSD. That he’d rather go to prep school and hope to end up with his friends at South Carolina in a year instead of going all the way to Philadelphia, where he knows no one and would be much farther from home, to play for a weaker program, is very understandable and does nothing to minimize the wrong of what was done.

    • Hmm… maybe they should pass a rule prohibiting these kids from making friends while they’re being recruited.

      • Texas_Dawg

        Yuk, yuk, yuk.

        Just pointing out why your pointing out players sticking with the schools that lied to them doesn’t show what you want it to show.

        • Like it or not, it’s still their choice.

          In this country, 18-year olds are legally allowed to enter into enforceable contracts in every sphere of life, provided they’ve got a willing partner. You’ve yet to provide me with a compelling reason why this situation should be any different.

          • Texas_Dawg

            I never said it wasn’t their choice. I was simply explaining to you why teenagers can be spun by powerful pros into making terrible decisions.

            And putting in place the oversigning rules I support wouldn’t do anything to limit such choices. The exact same number of scholarships will be given out then as now. Oversigning doesn’t increase the number of scholarships given out. Just the ability of powerful coaches to exploit people at a great disadvantage in negotiating with them on such major choices.

            There’s a reason the best universities don’t oversign while the most poorly rated universities do. I’d rather my university aspire to be a better university, not an inferior one.

          • Texas_Dawg

            On a different note, I’m sensing that your opposition to anti-oversigning rules is some kind of “libertarian” or “free market” thing.

            I understand the idea that rules and regulations often fail to change behaviors or make things even worse. I’m generally sympathetic to that position, and as a conservative I am generally opposed to instituting major changes of any kind where there is not good reason to believe or proof that such changes will be productive. That said, there exists a set of rules that has been tested for decades and has proven to be very effective at eliminating the very serious problems we see with oversigning, while not hurting recruits (quite the opposite actually). So if we’re in agreement that oversigning causes some very serious problems, then I don’t see why we shouldn’t support implementing that well-tested set of rules.

            • Oy. For the umpteenth time, I don’t have a problem with rules that would restrict oversigning. My concern, again, stated many times, is that any changes should focus on doing what’s best for the kids, not on competitive balance.

              • Texas_Dawg

                OK. Then what’s the point of the sarcastic post about banning making friends?

                And I’m not sure why you insist on making the rules changes about one or the other. Both are valid reasons for such rules.

          • Mayor of Dawgtown

            Really? Try to but liquor when you are 18 even if the liquor store owner wants to sell it to you-both would be in deep sh!t.

  3. Cojones

    The peanut butter is getting deeper.

  4. Jpc151

    For the love of all that is good,can we stop calling 18 year olds ..kids.