Woulda, coulda, shoulda

Questions from an alternate reality:

  • Start with Travis’ post.
  • Then, after reading this (“It’s not good that it’s like this halfway through, so we need to figure it out…”), ask yourself if this season might be unfolding differently if four defensive starters hadn’t behaved stupidly in the offseason.
  • Finally, top it off by reading Andy Staples’ take about how long a coach in Richt’s circumstances should get:  “… I’m afraid this question has no correct answer. Ohio State finally fired John Cooper, and Jim Tressel took the Buckeyes to the level the fan base desired. On the flip side, Nebraska fired Frank Solich, and Bill Callahan ran the program into the ground.”

Again, my point here isn’t to argue for or against canning Richt.  Rather, it’s that there aren’t any easy answers.  Unless you’re either totally fine with letting the program go on as it has for the past few years, or don’t have any problem with tossing head coaches out every three years if they don’t take things to a satisfactory level in that time, that is.  I can’t say that I burn with the fire of a thousand suns for either approach, but maybe that’s just me.

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348 Comments

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348 responses to “Woulda, coulda, shoulda

  1. TennesseeDawg

    Losing has been very good for the comment sections the last couple of days.

  2. TennesseeDawg

    Doesn’t matter right now. Richt will not be getting fired after signing the extension. The next coach to leave IMO will be Grantham as I think he will choose to head back to the NFL. I’m not on the fire CMR bandwagon yet but the Dawgs need to have a big win or at least a strong performance against Florida.

    • Rick

      Actually, if I had to pick a coordinator to go right now, it would have to be Grantham. I’d hate to do it because I obviously the jury’s still out, but so far I’d have to put the defensive performance this year (and 2010 for that matter) below more than one of Martinez’ units.

      • Scorpio Jones, III

        And, of course we like Grantham better because, rightly or wrongly, we, at least some of us, think he’s “our guy”…we, some of us, “got Willie run off” ergo, Grantham was our happy meal until one of his defenses got “Willied” by Steve Spurrier.

        Me? Since what I write hear has about as much impact as air, I am for giving Grantham at least till the end of the season.

        They been lots of DC’s got Willied by Spurrier.

        • Mayor of Dawgtown

          Let me state, as devils’ advocate, the opposite view. Last year USCe scored 45 against the Dawgs. There were some turnovers but there were also some turnovers Saturday. There was a fake punt run for a SC TD last year but there was also a punt return for a SC TD Saturday. Pretty much a wash on D between last year’s game and this year’s game. The real fall-down for UGA was on offense. The Dawgs were averaging over 40 points/game going into the UGA-USCe game which was about what they scored last year against USCe. This year….7 points. At the end. After the game was essentially over. The O lost this game–not the D.

    • Orl Dawg

      CMR is lacking only one thing: How to instill mental toughness. And that is it. Saban has mastered it. Hell they sent Bobo to visit Harbaugh this past summer. What did they talk about? Harbaugh’s built 3 teams from rags to contenders by basically doing one thing and thats developing a mentally tough team. Remember it’s not the size of the dog in the fight it’s the size of the fight in the dog. That is the only thing CMR needs to work on. He seems to want the leaders of the team to do the inspirational motivating.

      • gastr1

        Mike Leach said this about his team today:

        “We just need focused people. Rather than have fragmented focus, right now we’re a team that if we face any adversity, we get discouraged. If you don’t embrace adversity, you’re never going to improve.

        “We’ve got to be a team that embraces adversity, and right now we’re a team that if it’s not easy, we want to flinch and flounder. We’ve got to change that.”

      • Finally, someone gets it. This, and nothing else, is all that is required.

  3. Andy says, “merely above average” I have gotten thru life very well at merely above average. We can live with that, if it means beating Florida or as you say TD, “a strong performance.”

  4. PatinDC

    Thanks for the Nebraska mention. I think our situation is most like that.

    Tressell. Hmmm. I remember something about that. What was it? Oh yea. Fired in disgrace. Win at all costs? I think not.

    • Todd

      Tressel was tupid about what he did. It goes on everywhere. Sad thing is Georgia does some stuff and still gets busted by Carolina. Fans like you need to make a decide if you want a 9-10 win(crap the bed 2-3 times a year) or a good program representative. You can’t have both. Saban crosses the line, but mostly lives in the “grey” area.
      Mark Richt is a pussy, coaches scared, and his teams play not to lose instead of playing to win. Again, would somebody please tell me a team Georgia has beaten that had more talent?

      • MUDawgfan

        Who are you going to get that’s better? I mean really?
        Is Kirby Smart walking in here and immediately taking you to 12 wins, year after year?

        There is no acceptable alternative. He simply has to improve the staff that surrounds him.

        • Well maybe you should take a peek down to Gainesville to see what Muschamp has brewing. A stout defense and a young offense that is pounding the ball and wearing people out into the last half of games. What is this his second year? By golly how in the world was FU able to go out and find a coach that could lead their program to success?

          They get USCe and Mizzou at home. May as well call UGA a home game too. There is a possibility that FU will go undefeated into the SECC. Their worst case scenario at this point seems to be two SEC losses and a 10-2 record. Not too shabby for a second year coach that had to rebuild his program eh?

          Last year FU had a bare cupboard according to the folks down there. Yet here they are rolling along. Didn’t take Will long to get them going in the right direction. If he beats UGA this year, then he will have jumped UGA’s seasoned program in just his second year. Please tell me how you feel about that?

          Why do you think improving the UGA staff is going to make one bit of difference versus bringing in a new coach? We have turned over a number of staff the last few years and have seen no improvement. Our special teams still suck, our defense has regressed to 2010 form, and our offensive line looks like they are playing peekabo with defensive ends.

          I can tell you this much, we have way too much pure talent and seniority on this team this year to go lay an egg in Columbia like we did last weekend.

          • Toom

            Yep. Well said. I get a little tired of people afraid that we will suffer these great lapses. UGA recruits itself – it would take a really bad set of circumstances to screw that up. And secondly, it would take some really bad coaching to go worse than 10-4 last year, 10-2 this year. I know I am in the minority but I really don’t think you can do a lot worse with what our coaches have been handed.

          • Debby Balcer

            They have only played as many games as we have let’s wait and see how their year turns out before you call them a success based on six games.

  5. Mayor of Dawgtown

    This whole thing was/is nonsense. CMR was a hero when he was 5-0. He lost one game badly and now (some,not all) fans then want him gone. I am convinced now that a faction in our fanbase is actually WORSE than Bama’s and maybe is even the most unreasonable in the country.

    • Mayor of Dawgtown

      P.S. If “merely above average” means winning 2 SEC Championships, 4 SEC East titles and finishing 2nd in the nation and 3rd in the nation then we have really moved the bar of “average” way too high. Under that standard only the current Bama and LSU HCs deserve to keep their jobs in the entire nation.

      • Anon

        And yet we have no plan to get to that level.

      • David

        You’re talking about accomplishments that happened 6-7 years ago. Even the 2007 team got beat by SC and UT, didn’t win the East, but backed into the NC conversation because everyone else lost. That wasn’t a great team. Last years and this years teams were lucky with the schedules we had. We aren’t beating ranked teams. None of them. Everyone who is decent that we play beats us.

        • Mike, Not Gator Mike

          Good point, David. We were praying for Kentucky to beat Tennessee that year (which they nearly did), Pitt had to beat WVU and one other thing had to happen on the last day and did happen in order for us to get into the MNC conversation.

          • MinnesotaDawg

            Best thing that could happen to that 2007 team from a perception standpoint was missing out on the SECC and drawing a Hawaii team that was completely overmatched on both sides of the line. Same thing could happen this year–except everyone in the country is on to our schedule enhanced records.

      • Chopdawg

        Word! (oops, forgot, we don’t say that anymore, so +1)

    • I agree with you Mayor. Both of my Children graduated from Alabama. Wait…My Daughter 1st in her class in the school of Education, my Son….six years and not even a basket weaving degree. Alabama fans will not settle for less that perfect. The majority of the State are Alabama Fans. With no professional teams; Bama becomes the end all be all. I there the day Coach Satan arrived. I was at the Bear Bryant Hotel on Campus. The Media closed circuited all TV to his arrival. I was appalled! It was a Tuesday and the whole State was watching.

    • Rick

      Although sentiment isn’t anywhere near it’s apex (reached after the boise game, or maybe a week later after USC) last year – which is why I think this is much ado about nothing assuming Richt gets to 10 wins this year. If, on the other hand, Richt can replicate his results from 2009-2010 starting either this year or next year, he’ll be gone. I just don’t see it happening. Single-digit win seasons, though there have been two recently, just aren’t the norm under Richt. In 11 years, he’s only had 4 such seasons total in 11 SEC seasons (the same number, it’s worth noting, as Saban has had in 10 SEC seasons).

      I can’t help but get the feeling that the same fans who think it’s reasonable to *only* look at Richt’s most recent 3-4 seasons might also think that a coin that came up tails 3 times in a row was broken.

      • Todd

        Richt’s success came when the rest of the SEC was down. He can’t help what others are, but as the SEC got better Richt didn’t.

        • Bevo

          I share this view. Once upon a time, from 2001-2005, Georgia was up to speed with the conference. I think Richt may have gotten too comfortable. However it happened, we are now lagging years behind the conference elite in the SEC arms race.

          Still, as I’ve said many times, I won’t call for his job and I’m not even sure that’s the best option. But I am convinced that Georgia will not be winning championships, now or ever, under Mark Richt.

        • AthensHomerDawg

          The OBC was 9-5 when he won the east. He won the east with 3 SEC losses. You could say the east was down when he won. Except for Kentucky (6-7) knocking Spurrier off in spite of being a poor team.

          • Todd

            The rest of the east lost it, instead of the OBC winning it. Georgia lost to the 9-5 team. During Richt’s “glory years” the SEC was not 30-50% of the top 10 or coming off 6 MNC.

    • frowertr

      I don’t know Mayor. I think the same fans calling for his head now were calling it for it last year, and the year before, and the year before… They were simply content that we had gotten this far but still had unspoken animosity towards him. I mean, who would say aloud “fire Richt” when we were riding a 5-0 win streak?

      It doesn’t change the fact that we can’t win a big game. And when we finally do get to a big game, we get waxed.

      Look, I like Richt. But I just don’t think he has the “warrior spirit”. We haven’t been relevant since we last won the SEC in ’05 and we have never competed in a NC game. One would think the longest tenured head coach in the SEC would be able to at least get us into one NC game in 11 years of coaching.

      With the Sabans, Spurriers, Patrinos, Tressels, and Carrolls (granted two of those no longer coach college) in the world I just don’t think Richt will ever have a chance to lead UGA to a national championship. He places more emphasis on morals, drug testing, non-greyshirting, graduation rates, etc… than those 5 coaches combined. That isn’t a bad thing. But I’m beginning to wonder if they’re mutually exclusive relationships nowadays between some of Richts ideals and the ideals of his coaching peers when it comes to winning national championships…

      • frowertr

        Whoops, meant three of those coaches no longer coach in college. Not two…

      • Bryant Denny

        I don’t think you know anything about Nick Saban’s morals. That’s quite silly and even mean-spirited to bring up. He’s never been in NCAA trouble, greyshirting isn’t illegal or immoral and you have no evidence that Saban is pro drugs for his players.

        Oh yeah – and based on the last NCAA graduation success rates, Bama performed better than UGA.

        Just because you occasionally get out-coached and out-played, it doesn’t make everyone else evil.

        • AthensHomerDawg

          I would respond with some snarky remark…but I don’t have one. (Sighs)

          • Scorpio Jones, III

            How about, and of course only speakin for my self, “you are right, BD, and spot on, especially the last point.

            Some of us use a lot blogspace calling Nick Saban the devil, when in fact he does nothing illegal, immoral or that he is not allowed to do by the University of Alabama.

            If greyshirting or whatever the name for it is this week, were allowed by Georgia, we’d be doing it too, despite protestations to the contrary, because we would have no choice.

            • I refer to Saban as Satan because I am jealous. I had to live with the ALABAMA NATION for 20 Years and It was real hard. We raised our Children to be Georgia Fans, my Son is still a Georgia Fan, but had to live at Alabama for six years. He even came to the Blackout game with his Alabama Brothers and was for Georgia.

              On Wed, Oct 10, 2012 at 5:28 PM, Get The Picture wrote:

              > ** > Scorpio Jones, III commented: “How about, and of course only speakin > for my self, “you are right, BD, and spot on, especially the last point. > Some of us use a lot blogspace calling Nick Saban the devil, when in fact > he does nothing illegal, immoral or that he is not allowed to do by” >

        • Learn to read. I didn’t call him out specifically. I lumped him into a group which may or may not have been correct for me to do so.

          • Bryant Denny

            Um…I can read sort of…I don’t know anything about the other coaches, so I was specifically referring to Saban.

            No big deal. Have a good evening.

            • Please stay with us. It is nice to have someone who can be objective on this blog. We have a War Eagle who is around too.

              • Bryant Denny

                Can’t leave now…it’s just getting good.

                • You should have been here day before yesterday. We had some real DAWG fights. The Senator had to discipline us! I was very bad. But we all know who was the worst. I am not mentioning any ones name, but we all know.

                  On Wed, Oct 10, 2012 at 7:28 PM, Get The Picture wrote:

                  > ** > Bryant Denny commented: “Can’t leave now…it’s just getting good.” >

    • Carolinadawg

      ” CMR was a hero when he was 5-0. He lost one game badly and now (some,not all) fans then want him gone.”
      __________________________________________________________
      That comment is the real nonsense. It may make you feel more self righteous to belive that, but it ain’t true. There may a tiny minority that fit that description, but for most fans who have lost faith in Richt, the process has been building for years. The SC game was simply the latest in a long series of data points, the totality of which have been well documented.

      • Mayor of Dawgtown

        What makes me feel self-righteous is reading your comments CD. The people squawking about CMR were just waiting for a slip-up so they could start the “Fire Richt” meme again because of some grudge they still hold–maybe the 2010 season. In the history of college football I feel safe in saying that there probably has never been a coach coming off a division or conference championship year who was 5-1 who had people actively saying he should be fired. Something/somebody is really amiss here.

        • Rick

          Do not agree with the first part. I would bet cash money that CD, and most of the fire richt guys here, were very much looking forward to a win on saturday night.

        • BuzMan

          I’m not sure I can agree with that. I’m pretty sure some LSU fans are ready to get rid of the hat even if he wins another NC. Some people just decide that the coach is too emotional or not emotional enough or too soft on discipline or too tough on discipline ( I think Richt’s been accused of both.) and want the coach gone. In their minds, they think someone, somewhere else could do it better. That isn’t often the case. Sometimes it works but great coaches are few and far between and usually have their own issues.

      • Cojones

        Flowertr’s first paragraph hit the nail square on. Your statement using “self righteous” and “tiny minority” are full of pome d’ rue. The fact that the same people from the past are ready to pounce at the first ripple in our perfect schedule (that some had touted MNC expectations from) was like an axe ready to fall. In my phraseology, I allude to circling vultures waiting for something to die and at the first sign of a distressed fan base, pounce and begin to devour our spirit at it’s lowest.

        Several fans fought those fair weather fans successfully beginning over a year ago and will continue because Richt won and showed the naysayers for the amateurs that they are. A crowd has now gathered in defense of the team and coaches.You should get it through your head that we have an AD that does the firing. I intend to make sure he hears it frequently from others that many of us want Richt to continue without crippling him further in the eyes of his players and future recruits. You should ask the players if they are disgruntled with any coach. If so, then the HC, Richt, can take care of it.

        By the way, this is as nice as I get when epithets begin to get hurled. I haven’t farted generally in your direction yet, but I will if provoked.

    • Scorpio Jones, III

      Well, while you may be right Mayor, at least about some of the folks who have visited the last few days, we ain’t murdered no trees yet, so there is that.

      I hope Bryant Denney is still around, maybe he can opine about this, but the biggest difference to me is that Bama fans’ expect to win every game, every year. They are so shocked when that does not happen they are relatively quiet. When the Bama fanbase gets really pissed off, they fight on the beaches, in the streets and in the boardrooms, and Bubba, you ain’t seen anything till you have seen the Bama Nation pissed off….ask Bill Curry or Mike Shula.

      The truth is we are not really competitive with Bama, even on rancor.

      I would do that smiley thing there, but my emoticon key is broke.

      • Mayor of Dawgtown

        I’ll do it for you. :)

      • Cojones

        Scorp, it’s friggin Weds and no worrying about Ken. Have you lost your mind…..uuhh, have you forgotten your job?

        I realize that you have forgotten how to operate your tv control, but what does that have to do with leaving a smiley face? Cheez! :)

        • Scorpio Jones, III

          I am taking them one at a time, Cojo….I start worrying about Kentucky on like, Sunday afternoon?

          All this angst-driven football expertise is causing problems with my self esteem, and with my feelings of adequacy in general.

          I know how to do a smiley, but I am afraid it won’t meet everybody’s approval.
          :-(

      • Bryant Denny

        Scorpio, unfortunately (to some degree), you are correct.

        I’m in my 40s and I’ve seen my favorite team win more titles than most other fanbases combined. As a young boy living through the 70s, I’ve had more arrogance bred into me than I care to admit. Think about it – for an entire decade, we hardly ever lost to our main rivals – Auburn, UT and LSU. We rarely ever lost a conference game for an entire decade.

        As a result, we take things way too seriously. It’s just a game, although it’s easy to say that after winning two out of the last three nattys.

        I say let’s just enjoy it. Win or lose, let’s just enjoy the atmosphere, pageantry, rivalries and relationships. Everybody looks down on my state, but on the other hand, no matter where I go in the country, I have something to talk about during mostly pleasant conversations.

        I’ve been the arrogant prick with my self-esteem built on the success of my team. I say life is too short for that.

        Hang in there, Dawgs.

        BD

        • AthensHomerDawg

          “I say let’s just enjoy it. Win or lose, let’s just enjoy the atmosphere, pageantry, rivalries and relationships. ”
          “I’ve been the arrogant prick with my self-esteem built on the success of my team. I say life is too short for that.”

          Lets be honest here. You very much enjoy beating that drum. I’m glad you took time to point out all your success….. but at least you owned up to something. I’ll give you that.

          • Bryant Denny

            Well, don’t get me wrong, I do enjoy winning better than losing. I guess you could say the winning makes it easier to be all pious. I’ll give you that.

          • Bryant Denny

            I also realize I’m a Bama fan commenting on a UGA site. I enjoy reading the banter of you folks and realize it makes no sense to be a jerk on a rival’s site.

            If the Senator wants me to leave you Dawgs alone, I certainly will.

            • AthensHomerDawg

              Please stay. “Are we not entertained?” Besides if the Senator wanted you gone he wouldn’t need anyone’s approval and we can manage without him holding our hands.But thanks for thinking of us. ;-)

              • Yeah…Stay I like you…

                On Wed, Oct 10, 2012 at 5:49 PM, Get The Picture wrote:

                > ** > AthensHomerDawg commented: “Please stay. “Are we not entertained?” > Besides if the Senator wanted you gone he wouldn’t need anyone’s approval > and we can manage without him holding our hands.But thanks for thinking of > us. ;-)” >

          • Scorpio Jones, III

            BD…I hope you understand when I told you to leave the room I was absolutely kidding…it’s just that, well, I admit it, Bama is the elephant in the room, and he does make me feel small and kinda second-tier.

    • Dawgsense

      It’s not one loss. It’s a trend year after year of aweful non competitive losses.

  6. charlottedawg

    RIcht needs to go. The worst reason to accept long term mediocrity is because you run the risk of things getting worse. In life things can ALWAYS get worse. But simply standing pat because of fear is a loser’s mentality.

    I get it, the next guy could run our program into the ground. But here’s what you have to be ok with if we stick with Richt. Are you ok with never winning sec titles (unless purely by luck) until the guy retires? Are you ok with constantly being Florida’s whipping boy? are you ok with squandering one of the most financially profitable athletic departments and football programs in one of the nation’s most fertile recruiting grounds? are you ok with chronic problems in the football program like a consistent failure to develop o-linemen? Are you ok with constantly not only losing but getting embarrassed every time we play a big time opponent in the increasingly few big stages we get?

    I know we could do a lot worse than 10 wins a year. At the expense of sounding spoiled, the thought of being merely ok and constantly getting relegated to second tier status is frankly, hateful and despicable. I would love nothing more than to see Richt turn it around. The guy took our program to places it had never been until he arrived. But it’s pretty clear from the last few years that not only have we plateaued but we’ve declined, and I don’t see a guy in charge who knows or can turn things around. YMMV.

    • Rick

      Richt’s two SEC championship victories came by an average of 4 touchdowns. He must have been very lucky indeed.

      • charlottedawg

        I’m not discounting those SEC championships. But you think in the last 4 years we look anywhere close to to those early RIcht teams? Better question, do we look like we’re going to get back to being like those sec championship teams, especially relative to the rest of the SEC?

        • Rick

          Again, why do we only want to look at the last 4 years? If you want to evaluate anything in the universe, a larger sample size is ALWAYS better. There is no long-tenured coach that I am aware (other than Tom Osborne, who was amazingly consistent) in the last 60 years that didn’t have a period of 4-5 years in which he looked like he had lost his touch. Why do we begrudge Richt his? And if it’s genuine, why not let that fact reveal itself by giving him a couple of years to prove how mediocre he is?

          • charlottedawg

            I’d argue 3-4 seasons is a pretty large sample size. That’s 40+ games or in this case about a quarter of Richt’s tenure. I’d argue that’s pretty significant. We haven’t beaten a team that finished in the top 25 since 2009. There’s very little evidence that things are turning around.

            • Rick

              Right, it’s not. It isn’t significant at all. Picking the worst possible starting point (beginning of 2009), Richt is 29-17, which a very mediocre Donnan-like .630 winning percentage. Is it likely is that an excellent .750 coach could have a stretch like that or worse? It’s actually pretty easy to calculate (just go here and enter n=46, p = .75 and 0<X<29).

              The answer is 5% or, stated another way, approximately once every 20 games you'll begin a stretch like that or worse. Fortunately for coaches, most of the time these stretches will be hidden by being split over multiple seasons, but occasionally you'll have a stretch begin right at the beginning of a season and result in a couple really poor looking records for.

              Maybe Richt really is no longer the .750-.800 coach he once was, but the last 4 years don't remotely show that to be the case, no matter what it 'feels' like.

              • charlottedawg

                I’ll need to double check my stat knowledge. But if you’re using a binomial model, which it looks like this website is. The 5% means that there is only a 5% chance that a coach with a true winning percentage going forward of 75% would go 29-17 in 46 trials (games). Therefore the stat is significant at the 95% level that Richt’s true winning percentage going forward will not be 75%. Or in layman’s terms, we are 95% certain that Richt is not a 75% winning coach going forward based on your sample of since 2009.

                • Rick

                  Your interpretation would be correct if Richt coached his first game in 2009 . As it would be true if Bear Bryant coached his first game in 1967. Or Barry Switzer in 1981. Or Bobby Bowden in 1981. I’ll stop there :)

                  Given the rest of the data we have, we can roughly 50% certain that Richt is not a 75% winning coach going forward (he might be worse, but he might actually be better). The point is that the last 4 years are a perfectly reasonable ‘worst 4 years’ for a coach of his tenure.

                • Rick

                  And yes, other than that, you are intepreting the calculation correctly. You can essentially think of bernoulli and binomial stuff as the same.

                  • AthensHomerDawg

                    That’s good coaching right there. Correct the mistakes and then build them back up. ;-)

                  • charlottedawg

                    but if we were testing to see if there is a significant DIFFERENCE between the first part of the Richt era (2001-2008) and since 2009, you have compelling evidence to believe that yes indeed there is a difference. Since the 5% also tells you that if the true mean winning percentage of the last 3 years and prior period were the same you would only see a stretch as bad as the last 3 years 5% of the time. Which then you could be 95% sure that the true winning percentage of the last 3 years (and assuming going forward, which is a sizeable but not huge assumption) is significantly lower than the true average winning percentage of the prior seasons under Richt (2001-2008)

                    • Rick

                      That sounds nice, but there is a subtle (and extremely important, and extremeley common!) oversight here. In fact, it actually has a name: the Texas Sharpshooter fallacy..

                      Basically, if you were presented two records of Coach #1 and Coach #2 that corresponded to 2001-2008 and 2009-present respectively, you could make some claim along the lines of what you have there. But that’s not what we have here. In this case, you picked a cut off that specifcially exaggerates a (likely random) pattern in the data most dramatically. As I said, you can do this in any noisy data set (see the careers of Bowden, Bryant, Switzer, et. al.) quite easily, and it doesn’t mean anything at all. You are in good company, though, I have seen PhD researchers befuddle themselves this way (and get published!).

                      However, if Richt were to repeat the results of 2009-present starting now, then we’d have a new coach on our hands.

                    • PNWDawg

                      I’m wondering if we’re using confidence intervals correctly here? A 95% confidence interval does not mean we are 95% likely to have the true mean containted within the interval.

                    • AthensHomerDawg

                      but…. but… but…. let it go. It was game,set, match at 10:11am
                      just sayin’

                    • AthensHomerDawg

                      I enjoyed following this thread… thanx. To both of you.
                      “Big Rick” vs Charlottedawg———->>>

                  • Charles

                    P-values or it didn’t happen!

              • PNWDawg

                I’d like to take this moment to apologize for participating in a discussion on statistical theory on a UGA football blog. I blame Bobo.

            • Bulldawg165

              I’d say that we have a larger sample size than 4 years where Richt has been mediocre. We haven’t done squat since 2005. If you want to point out how we ended up number 2 in 2007, please also elaborate on your feelings about getting blown out by a 4 loss Tennessee team that year and losing to a 6-6 south carolina team that didn’t even qualify for a bowl game. The only reason we ended up number 2 is because it was a very rare year where a lot of other good teams managed to get upset. It wasn’t a rarity for us that year though, but rather the start of a trend, and that’s the problem.

              • David

                Exactly. The 07 team wasn’t great. We didn’t win the East and played Hawaii in the bowl. If we had played in the SEC Championship and a better team in the bowl, our results in 07 could have very easily been the same as last years team.

          • Carolinadawg

            Rick – In your job, is recent performance not important? Lets say you sell cars, and have done so for 10 years or so. Your first year you sold 25, not bad. The next year 40, pretty good. The next 50, then 60, then 50 again. Then 40. Uh oh, theres a downward trend. He talks to you, coaches you on technique, product knowledge, etc. You know you need to improve, but the next year you sell 30. More conversations with the manager. The next year 20, then 10. Do you think the sales manager would keep you around because you USED to be pretty good? I don’t. I think he’d look at trend line and conclude that even though he’d let you know you needed to improve, and had given you all the tools to succeed, he’d be better off with a new salesman.

            • Rick

              Carolina – see reply above. The point is not that his performance has been satisfactory recently, the point is that he could *easily* be the same excellent coach he has always been and get those results. That’s what happens in a long career, just as has happened to almost every such coach in the history of the game.

              We keep using this word ‘trend’. Trends can only be identified with a certain confidence level once enough data has come in. Anything else is just navel-gazing. I know it ‘feels’ like you have enough data, but you just don’t. FWIW, at my employer this is well understood. If it were not we would probably be firing a lot of good people and promoting a lot of crappy people based on the latest poorly supported ‘trend’ (and I would voluntarily be seeking other employment a long time ago).

              • Carolinadawg

                Actually, the point very much IS that his performance hasn’t been satisfactory in the past 4+ years. And theres plenty of data for that, whether you agree or not.

                • Rick

                  Again, see my point above referencing the calculator for bernoulli trials. There are ways of objectively evaluating whether the size of a data set is ‘plenty’. There is no room for ‘agreeing’ or ‘disagreeing’. You are either wrong or right. Now, if you want to evaluate him on other subjective criteria (someone mentioned above that he lacks a ‘warrior spirit’), be my guest. I am not equipped to evaluate those claims. I can only tell you about raw wins and losses.

                  • Carolinadawg

                    Look, we can all cherry pick whatever set of data we wnt, and manipulate however we want. The bottom line is this program, under richt, started out strong and has now faltered. He’s had 4+ years of less than satisactory performance, with no turnaround in sight. How much longer does he get?

                    • Rick

                      Cherry pick data? I am using *your* cherry picked data, you get that right? And I didn’t pick an evaluation method out of my ass, that is the ONLY evaluation method for that type of data.

                      On your last question, the last 10 years of Philip Fulmer is pretty close to the type of performance you would expect from a coach that really has ‘faltered’. If Richt had a 2-3 more mediocre-to-bad seasons over the next 2-4 seasons, we could easily be in that territory.

                    • Mayor of Dawgtown

                      “…with no turnaround in sight…” Good Lord!!! The guy won the SEC East last year and is 5-1 this season. The trend is up, not down.

                  • charlottedawg

                    just out of curiosity what’s your background in statistics?

                    • Rick

                      I’m an anonymous internet coward – so I would prefer just to say I am a scientist, and you gots to know that stuff to evaluate experimental data.

                  • Mayor of Dawgtown

                    Plus, UGA has 4 main rivals: Florida, Auburn, UT and Georgia Tech. He beat all 4 last season and already has beaten UT this season. I just don’t see where the trend since the low point (2010) is anything but up.

                    • Scorpio Jones, III

                      Dude…trolls come in many guises, many hats, many shirts…they are still trolls….walk on, dude.

                    • Mayor of Dawgtown

                      Thank for the wake-up face slap SJ, III. I feel better now. :)

                    • Cojones

                      Scorpio- And this one has been wearing sheep’s clothing and walking among us for a few days. My thanks to you as well.

                      Now, get to work and lets hear about our problems we all have to worry about with Kentucky.

                    • Carolinadawg

                      Whoop-de-doo! Last year we also played 4 teams who finished the season ranked in the top 25 and guess what? We lost to all of them.

                    • Carolinadawg

                      Scorp – you are WAY to old to be using the term “dude”. And I guess your definition of troll is anyone who doesn’t agree with you?

            • Rick

              It’s also worth noting that, contrary to your example and that of most professions, football is a zero-sum game. That is extremely significant when you are evaluating someone by a single number (won/loss) and how they are improving/regressing.

              • Carolinadawg

                I’m not evaluating Richt purely on the basis of wins and losses. Thats the whole ponit. Its the quality of the wins and losses, and the quality of the opponents. Look at our record against ranked teams in the past 4 years. Look at our record in important games. Its abysmal. We feast on cupcakes and pad the overall stats, but against good teams in big games, we are terrible. And its been that way for years, with absolutely so sign of improvement.

      • Carolinadawg

        Yeah, and those were in what, 2002 and 2005? News flash, its 2012.

        • Bulldawg165

          Yep. Not to mention he did it before the likes of Urban Meyer at Florida, Saban at Alabama, Spurrier at USC, Petrino at Arkansas, etc. etc.

          Richt won the SEC titles at a time when the SEC was on the verge of becoming the dominant conference, but it wans’t quite the dominant conference yet. It was still an above average conference. Since the ante has been upped in the SEC Richt hasn’t been able to field a team that matches up and competes with the best of them.

          • Todd

            BINGO!!^^^^^ This man gets it.

          • sniffer

            Please forgive the troll…

            The definition of “under achievement” is subjective in this debate. We’re Georgia, the discussion is about Georgia. Let me offer what could be an objective (to an outsider) list of underacheivers during this same timeframe.

            Stoops @ Oklahoma
            Brown @ Texas
            Tressel @ Ohio State (couldn’t beat the SEC)
            Fisher @ FSU
            Beamer @ VaTech
            Pellini @ Nebraska
            Gundy
            Leach

            The list could go on. Face it. We don’t like the national perception of being behind Saban, Miles, Meyer and now Spurrier (again). It seems to me, those are the few coaches who havent underachieved recently. News Flash! They ain’t coming to UGa! EVERYONE else is a crapshoot if your only goal is a Mythical National Championship (which, for now, it is)

            • Carolinadawg

              Why do you fear success so much?

              • sniffer

                I’m guessing you and I have a different definition of success. I hate the way we have been losing, but the certainty of greater success than we have now isn’t a given just because we change coaches.

                Would you happy with Bobby Petrino as your coach?

                • He probably would. He seems like the Bobby Petrino type.

                  • Carolinadawg

                    I bet you’re not!

                    • AthensHomerDawg

                      I bet she isn’t either. She has always been a lady on this blog. You on the other hand have been somewhat of a bore. What’s up with that “Dude”?

                    • I just ignore that guy…He is so HATEFUL.

                      On Wed, Oct 10, 2012 at 5:25 PM, Get The Picture wrote:

                      > ** > AthensHomerDawg commented: “I bet she isn’t either. She has always been > a lady on this blog. You on the other hand have been somewhat of a bore. > What’s up with that “Dude”?” >

            • Todd

              Doesn’t 3 of those have MNC?

          • BuzMan

            The SEC is a dominant conference because of Alabama and LSU. Florida didn’t really change it’s stripes from Spurrier to Meyer. You move Alabama and LSU into the PAC-12 and they become the dominant conference.

          • Bobby

            That’s actually a really good point.

            • Bobby

              Although, from top to bottom, I have felt that the SEC was the superior conference before its run of BCS Championships. Prior to UF making the title game, the SEC just got shafted over and over again w/ the pollsters. For example, I don’t know if Auburn could have beaten USC in 2004, but they would have done a hell of a lot better job than OU. That kind of shit just happened repeatedly. And Saban’s LSU team was a co-champ in 2003; another example of an SEC team getting shafted.

              You are correct that the SEC has become–by far–the best conference in college football. That is attributable to the influence of Saban/Meyer/Miles/Petrino all being present at some point or another. However, it was still a really strong conference at least from 2002 to 2005, years in which Richt was highly successful.

              • Dawgsense

                Part of the problem there was that Auburn and Arkansas had already been whipped by USC in the couple of seasons before that if memory serves.

                • Mayor of Dawgtown

                  I guess since UGA played LSU in ’08 and beat’em by 2 TDs that means the Dawgs were really National Champions in ’07–right? That’s my story and I’m sticking to it.

    • Cojones

      No, Charlotte. Running when the first shot is fired is a loser’s mentality.

  7. rugbydawg79

    Burn with the power of a thousand suns–wanting to beat fla comes close

  8. Gatriguy

    Meh, Richt probably isn’t going anywhere unless he get embarrassed by both Florida AND Tech. I fully expect Florida to pants us, but Tech’s ineptitude makes Richt look competent by comparison.

    I expect Grantham to leave after this year. He knows his stock peaked last year, and with basically the whole defense leaving, nie’s the time to sell. So, Richt will have to make another managerial hiring decision, which means you can expect him to get played by about 3-4 big names that parlay our opening into a raise.

    You always run the risk that the next coach you hire won’t be as good as the previous one, but then you get another one.

  9. The other Doug

    I’n one of those fans that oscillates between the “keep Richt” and “fire Richt” camps. I really like Richt and deep down want him to stay, but at times it looks like he isn’t the guy to lead the team anymore.

    I was in the “fire” camp last year after the USC game. I felt like the game plan on offense for the Boise game was crap and the players looked undisciplined against USC. I slowly moved back into the “keep” camp as the season went on. I saw a great defense that played hard and I saw an offense that just needed a couple things ironed out.

    I was solidly in the “keep” camp early this season because I was drinking the kool aid. The reality hit like a ton of bricks on Saturday. The offensive game plan is still prone to lapses. The players still are undisciplined. We still look like a team that needs more players who just GATA.

    I know the Dawgs are going to lose some games, but I’m tired of watching the coaches and players not show up for a couple games a year. This doesn’t make me a bandwagoner like some of you want to believe. I’m a fan who wants it to work out for Richt but I’m not blind to the facts.

    • NateG

      I know the Dawgs are going to lose some games, but I’m tired of watching the coaches and players not show up for a couple games a year. This doesn’t make me a bandwagoner like some of you want to believe. I’m a fan who wants it to work out for Richt but I’m not blind to the facts.

      That pretty well encapsulates how I feel as well.

      • Jim

        Couldnt agree more. Unfortunately “not showing up for a couple of games per year” is not a new thing for us. I reached my wits end with it in ’07 but it has been a problem for a long time.

        • Scorpio Jones, III

          Like throughout the whole history of Georgia football, minus that one year?

          Like Clemmons 82?

          Like Awbun in 42 or 46 (I can never get that straight)?

          We ain’t Bama.

          • Scorpio Jones, III

            Interesting nobody caught that it was Clemmons in 81, not 82, when we turned the ball over like 23 times or something and ended the longest win streak in the history of the known world for Georgia.

  10. Lowdawg

    From Seth Emerson’s Blog on macon.com — this guy NAILED it
    Seth, love your coverage of the Dawgs but you are still avoiding the elephant in the room, which is that this is not the first time we have seen this movie before. Going back 5 years, this team is consistently unprepared for big games against teams of similar talent levels. When was the last time Georgia beat a team in the top 10? It was 2009 when they defeated an overrated Tech team with less talent. Outside of that, Georgia is 1-8 vs top 10 teams going back to the Stafford-Knowshon years and most of the losses have been lopsided. Given that UGA has more current players on NFL rosters than all but one other school, is it difficult to understand why this continues to happen?
    Sure you can break down phases of the game and look at what can be corrected, and sure these things probably will be corrected to some extent against the likes of 1-5 Kentucky, 1-4 Auburn and 3-3 Ole Miss. But in year 12 of the Richt Experiment, after all the heralded recruiting classes, NFL draftees and the glimpses of potential, what should be the measuring stick for Georgia?
    The difference between South Carolina in the first few Spurrier years and now is talent. Before they simply didn’t have the same talent levels as UGA but they still battled and often made things interesting. Now that the talent gap has started to even out, it’s become a complete mismatch, just like it was when Spurrier was at Florida. His game preparation is so much better than Richt’s that the team is at a competitive disadvantage before they even step on the field.
    But it isn’t just Spurrier. This was a replay of the Boise State and LSU games of 2011. Florida in 2008 and 2009. Alabama in 2008. Time and time again, when Georgia faces a talented, highly ranked opponent in a nationally hyped game, it folds like a polyester suit. But we aren’t talking about tough losses. We are talking blowouts. Blowouts where the problems are numerous and obvious in all phases of the game. Poor game planning, slow starts, self-inflicted mistakes, complete lack of in-game adjustments (other than Grantham a few times last year), poor offensive playcalling, bad clock management, penalties, etc.
    As the Georgia beat writer, Seth, I would love to hear your defense (or lack thereof) of this trend. I realize you probably can’t say what you really feel because that could jeopardize your relationship with the program, but honestly, do we need more evidence that the coaching staff is unable to compete at the highest level of the SEC? Are there people who understand the game deeply and have watched events of the past five seasons and who remain unconvinced of what I speak? Or is the standard simply to consistently win 9-10 games, go to a New Year’s Day bowl and everyone is happy? I ask these questions in all sincerity.
    Honestly, I would be ecstatic about consistent 9 win seasons if every once in a while we could actually play one of the top teams in the conference/country competitively. But 5 years is enough evidence for me to know that at this point, we simply cannot. In fact, after last night, I think it fair to say that Georgia has regressed recently in terms of its player development and continued growth as a program. Given that many have been touting 2011 and 2012 as resurgent years for Richt, seeing such a poor on-field product is an alarming sign. It is also clear that any resurgence is likely a reflection of scheduling and the current rebuilding periods facing Auburn and Tennessee…
    Furthermore, is it just me or does the staff go back to the same platitudes and cliched quotes after every big loss? No one takes any blame or vows to fix anything. No one admits that they were unprepared. No one acknowledges that they didn’t make the right calls or adjustments. It’s always just a “we played a bad game and life goes on” type of thing. I looked up the recap of the Alabama loss from 2008 (which btw was an ominously similar face plant by Georgia). Mark Richt’s response “we just got whipped.” Sounds like his comments from last night.
    There is no shame in losing on the road to South Carolina. None whatsoever. If Georgia had lost 35-28, I wouldn’t be writing this comment. But to never even challenge the opponent or make the game interesting is a damning indictment of the coaching staff. The truth is, it is well past time for the program to make a change. Last night was simply the straw that broke the camel’s back.
    Yes, I understand the risks involved (see Tennessee and Fulmer), and yes I understand that this staff has done a lot of great things, runs a clean program and handles itself it a way that makes an alum like myself proud. Richt has an incredible resume just looking at the paper numbers. No doubt. But for the money he and his assistants are being paid (collectively about $5 million a year), they are not properly meeting expectations. It is simply time to take a new path into the future. There is no shame in saying this nor is this a sign that the fanbase is out of control or has unrealistic expectations.
    We gave Richt 12 years, enjoyed the ride and supported him throughout. He made a lot of money, built a great reputation and a foundation for winning at Georgia, and he will no doubt be set up well to do whatever he wants to do next, whether it be establishing a Christian mission or coaching again at another school. It is clear that Bobo will be a head coach some day but he needs to get some experience outside of Athens and with another staff. Grantham, too, has had a nice 3-year run and should be able to parlay it into a better opportunity.
    As for Richt, he will always be a hero on campus and a worthy entry into the Georgia history books. He was a great coach for his time and era at the university. But times change, and the program, which Forbes lists as one of the top 10 most powerful/lucrative college franchises, is in sore need of new direction. We love you, Coach Richt, but it’s time for the program to let you go and start looking to the future of Georgia football.

  11. ThePetis

    For those that want Richt gone…. who do you think we can realistically get to replace him? I’m interested to hear who you think we can get and why that coach would be a better fit.

    • Todd

      When the new SEC contract comes down and the money available with it, gonna get interesting as to who can be swayed to come to Georgia.

      • stoopnagle

        What? We can already out-spend anyone whom we’d be competing against. But we’re tight-fisted with money, so we won’t.

    • ThePetis

      Dan Mullen? Charlie Strong? Please tell me we can do better….

  12. Scott

    After reading Travis’ post m question is “What if Rambo would have held onto the ball on the first play, and not had it taken?” I think that would have gone a long way towards completely changing the course of the game.

    • Chuck

      Great point but Rambo did not want it as bad as the South Carolina receiver did. Our players have no fight in them. They talk more trash than back it up.

    • David

      They still would have kicked our ass.

      • Dawgsense

        Right, what if our fumble recovery in the first series of the Funeral game was not called back by a penalty. Likely the same result.

  13. MB

    Richt’s an excellent Head Coach with a higher win percentage than Saban, or Spurrier. That’s the bottom line. The losses in the last 2 seasons have been to top 5 teams like South Carolina, Boise, and LSU. Richt as a Head Coach at UGA had a strong win % vs. ranked teams in his first 5 seasons at UGA, so Richt’s NOT the issue.

    I think you need proven off/def coordinators, and proven asst coaches running both oline/dline, that seems to be missing right now. Not sold on Garner, and Searels is missed, as is Van Gorder, and an OC like Richt running the offense. Also, your key players on offense & defense need to be from the state of Georgia to bleed for UGA like Herschel, Pollack, Greene, etc, Qb from Florida or Missouri is not the same. If you lose to Florida, clean house with the staff and give Richt a shot to get back to beating ranked teams because Richt’s already proven he can do it.

    • Todd

      Bullcrap, he had his chance. Richt is responsible for the program. Give him 2 more years and Saban will have the “percentage” you speak of. If you think for one minute Mark Richt is a better coach than Nick Saban then you are just foolish. I want him to be, but it ain’t even close.

    • Carolinadawg

      Umm, who hired the assistant coaches and who is responsible for recruiting the players?

  14. Doug

    What’s getting at me about Richt isn’t the little individual plays Travis mentions — Terrence Edwards’ drop against Florida in 2002, Stafford’s wheel route against Carolina in ’07, etc. Sure, those could’ve gone either way and changed the course of the game on their own. You can’t blame Richt for one play not working, one player dropping the ball or being a little out of position.

    What bothers me more is the complete, total, 60-minute meltdowns we’ve had where nothing went right — Tennessee ’07, Alabama and Florida ’08, Tennessee and Florida ’09, take your pick ’10, and now South Carolina ’12. You can’t point to an individual play or player that keyed those losses because everything went to hell almost from the opening gun, and that’s on Richt and the coaching staff. I realize every team has those moments, but we seem to have them annually, and in pivotal games.

    When do we stop doing that? Or, at least, when do we develop the mental fortitude to bounce back and gut out a win when the chips are down? Because if the answer is “never,” then you can use that same answer for the question, “When is Richt going to lead us to another SEC title?”

    • ThePetis

      Excellent point. I’d never thought of it in those terms, but you are dead on.

    • Jim

      Winner, winner chicken dinner

    • wnc dawg

      Points well taken, and I agree for the most part. But I think we bounced back and gutted out a win last year vs FL (down 14-0 for no good reason). That is what made the continued meltdown in Columbia so frustrating. I had bought into the idea that we had put that type of stuff behind us.

      Momentum is important, but people are making mountains out of mole hills when talking ab Rambo’s non pick or so and so’s dropped pass. Everybody has those, and teams that compete for championships overcome them.

      I haven’t felt this down a/b Richt getting us back to championship caliber since the beat down against FL in ’08. Richt talked about that (failed) onside kick early in that game as a momentum changer that contributed to the blowout. Rambo’s lack of a pick feels very similar to me. It was 1 play that didn’t go our way early that led to a deficit. But it in no way explains the meltdown that came. When you get the shit kicked out of you like that and your talking about a play or two early that could of changed things, you are just kidding yourself. Sure it might’ve been a little different, but come on.

  15. stoopnagle

    Raise your paw if you think McGarity is going to fire Mark Richt when he himself is on the verge of getting a new boss? Or if you think Mike Adams is going to fire Richt as his last act as president of UGA? Anyone? Anyone?

    But, you never know what that little orange-and-blue notebook says GM should do… Let’s just hope it doesn’t say “Hire Ron Zook”.

    • defactodawg

      You make an important point many may not be considering. Even if McGarity decides it’s time, Adams will not allow it to happen. No change will come until, at the least, there is a replacement for Adams.

  16. I wonder if UGA has a TEAM PSYCHOLOGIST, so both athletes and coaches can PERFORM BETTER on bigger games. As many have said it is not the losses but the near total collapse in those. Difficult to say which needs it more, the athletes or the coaches or both.

  17. MUDawgfan

    Personally, I blame CTG and Aaron Murray for recent disappointing losses than I blame Coach Richt.

    Being down 14-0 forces within six minutes of gametime tends to force your hand a bit. Your hope is that your quarterback can be accurate and create some scoring (or at least force your opponent to have a long field) so that the lead is 10 points or less by halftime.

    Murray was able to do neither.

    • Bulldawg165

      Who was responsible for recruiting and developing Murray, and putting people around him that will help him succeed?

      Who was the person responsible for hiring Grantham?

    • cube

      You blame Aaron Murray more than you blame Richt? Good grief man. Just incredible.

  18. AthensHomerDawg

    RIcht is not leaving this year or next. Other than the Gators and whatever bowl he will win the rest of his games. No one really believes that Tech will beat Georgia. I don’t. He has two weeks to get ready for Kentucky and the Gators. Preseason we all were singing Coach Todd “Damn” Grantham praises. I have no clue what happened to that defense this season. I couldn’t figure out what happened to our special teams and kicker last year. The kicker seems to be doing great in the pros. Just like every other sports fan I’ve been disappointed at times. Now doubt is starting to creep in. That was a long and dreary ride back from Columbia. Are the uSC fans starting to get as obnoxious as the UT fans use to be?
    I am not a Disney Dawg or an Eeyore Dawg. I am an irritable and unhappy Dawg. This season started out with such promise. I hope we can make up for that “whipping” that the OBC put on us. Go Dawgs!

    • Normaltown Mike

      As to what is wrong with the D, I’m wondering if CTG over estimates his ability or his players ability to mix and match like an NFL roster. These guys may all play in the NFL, but few are NFL ready when they are 19, 20, 21. Case in point is Herrera. The guy is a beast no doubt, but I think CTG made a mistake by putting him at Mike and giving him responsibility to call the D. I’d rather he play more and think less at this point in his career and have a more senior (though less talented) LB call plays.

    • Mayor of Dawgtown

      What’s wrong with the D? It’s the suspensions, that’s what. 4 starters were out for the first 2 games and 2 of those missed the first 4 games. They are the ones who keep missing assignments because they never got to work out the kinks. They are still not at midseason form even though the season is half over. That destroyed the team chemistry of the D. If you feel the need to blame one person, at least blame the right guy–Mike Adams. He’s the one who came up with the “mandatory suspension” BS for petty violations, with no room for individual consideration of circumstances. The reason behind this policy was to make ADAMS look good to the NCAA not for the betterment of UGA or its athletics.

      • cube

        LOL

        Now you’re blaming Adams for what we saw Saturday night? I’m actually laughing as I write this. Damn man…what about Jan Kemp? Is she going to get off scott free?

        • Mayor of Dawgtown

          I blame Adams for intruding into football operations, yes. Our administration keeps interfering with the athletic department (Football is just one thing–remember Harrick? Our BB team still hasn’t recovered from that episode.). Do you think that having those 4 defensive players suspended didn’t hurt the chemistry of the D?

      • Cosmic Dawg

        Wow. This is crazy to me.

        1. IF the suspensions hurt our team, then the players are still responsible for losing the game, because the players’ behavior is what got them suspended.

        2. HOWEVER – Rambo and Ogletree have been in CTG’s D for THREE years. They had two weeks to practice after the Vandy game and a game against TN to sand off the rough edges. They have been getting reps during practice all year, even while they were suspended. They have been in team meetings learning schemes just like the rest of the D. AND if they were not ready to play, it is CTG and CMR’s responsibility to diagnose this and have other players ready to play in their place.

        You don’t have to be a hater, or want to see somebody fired, or turn your back on your school to say “enough” with trying to find excuses why the Dawgs were not coached up and amped up to play this game. I have not given up on the season – I still think this is a great group of kids with a lot of character in different ways.

        Once again, I don’t think anybody on this board is really bitching about “a loss”. We are bitching about getting thoroughly emasculated. The Georgia Bulldogs, especially after 12 years under CMR, should not get its ass kicked and its lunch money taken by *any* team in the country like that – ever. Ever.

        After 12 years, we should be at least two deep with SEC caliber – shoot, ACC caliber – starters at every position.

        We can get beat, but given the staff continuity over three plus years, the number of seniors on this team, etc, etc – there is no excuse for us to look clueless, worried, confused, defeated, and without any answer whatsoever on BOTH sides of the stinking football. I don’t care who the opposition is, whether its an up year or a down year, whatever. We can lose by 70 points, but we should never get pushed around like that.

        Freaking **Buffalo** gave us more of a fight than we gave SC.

  19. Chuck

    I have made this point on several occasions, the sole underlining issue with the football program is the effort of getting 4 and 5 star athletes that care more about what is on the inside of the helmet than what’s on the outside. Ultimately, this comes down to the responsibility of the coaches and Coach Mark Richt is the head man. There are several programs (South Carolina) being one that are getting things done without these privileges athletes. Get rid of them and get players that want to play for Georgia, and that believe in Georgia and the program will turn around, just as we had in the 80 and when Coach Richt started coaching at Georgia. Keep these athletes that we have now and we are going to continue to see the same results. I would like to see ones that want to fight, not get hit in the mouth and coward down and eventually quit. If I wanted to watch that type of football I would watch the NFL. The reason I prefer college football over the NFL is due to the fire, and passion the players and coaches have for their team. The only passion and fire is coming from the fan base of Georgia, its sure hell not coming from the players.
    I know for me personally, it’s getting very hard as a fan to continue to support this program. I believe that Coach Mark Richt is one of the finest individuals and is the most inspiring, respectful, Godly man that I know! He is someone that anyone can look up to and model their life after. I would love for him to continue to lead this program but something must change. If our players are unable to get up for a game against South Carolina what will motivate this program. They basically pissed a chance away at a national championship, and in my opinion if we were able to pull it out it would be tainted. If you are unable to beat a mediocre SEC team you do not deserve to have an opportunity to play. I guess after 42 years of watching my beloved DAWGS I may convert to another team, because I just do not think we can every get over the hump.

    • Normaltown Mike

      To be fair, SC doesn’t get rid of those athletes, they just put them up in a residential hotel off campus.

      • AthensHomerDawg

        I thought of the same example. The OBC handling of his last qb was very poor as well. For all the praise he receives for his coaching ability he did let a 5-7 Navy team take him to the wire. In 2010 a 6-7 Kantucky beat him. That was the year of his SEC East championship. He won that with 3 SEC losses. Did he get his when the SEC East was down? In 2009 Conn. got him. A Vandy team that Duke beat nailed him in ’08. I wonder what uSC fans had to say about that?

      • Debby Balcer

        SC coddles them and supports them as long as they aee winning. Shot it coddles coaches their QB coach was arrested last year for urinating in public on the main street in Greenville SC and got his hand slapped. That would not happen at Georgia. Clowney was pulled over as a freshman near a bar and nothing was done. Neither SC or Clemson athletes are treated like UGA’s are. FL treated theirs the same way as SC and look what has happened there as well as TN. SC is under NCAA investigation right now. Bama has been as well as AU and TN. We can stand proud that we have achieve and not cut corners to be there.

        • Scorpio Jones, III

          It is gettin lonely here on the moral high ground, Deb….but for anybody to acknowledge the truth of your statement would require the Richt Ousters to admit we play with different rules, something they have chosen, either through ignorance or unconcern, to ignore.

        • Mayor of Dawgtown

          You are right Debby. It seems that the Athens cops and the UGA cops, as well as the University itself (I blame Adams for that) actively try to cause problems for athletes. They also do that with regular UGA students. I cannot say that I am “proud” of that though.

          • Todd

            Do you guys know how many people they arrest in 5 points on a nightly basis?

            Yes, Georgia does compete on a different standard. That is the excuse Clemson fans like to use too..

    • cube

      So you’re saying that we should get lesser recruits that “love” UGA more than the 4 or 5 star guys? Or are you saying that we get the wrong 4 or 5 star guys?

      Either way, what a load of crap.

      • Chuck

        NO what I am saying is get players that want to play for Georgia and not their NFL carriers. I can name several great players that played at Georgia because it was Georgia and went on and had a great carrier in the NFL, but when they played for Georgia they bleed on the field as a DAWG and did not roll over an quit. They all quit on Saturday. They got hit in the mouth and quit, and that is not the tradition of Georgia. Go back and look at what Russel did with a lot less talent. Everyone knew that when you walk on that field that you were in for a 60 minute war. That is the reason that we hold up 4 fingers when we start the 4th qrt. Research it! The 80s team barely got by in games but they never stopped battling. The same was true when Mark arrived at Georgia. He had players that wanted to play for Georgia and believed in Georgia. THAT IS WHAT WE MUST HAVE to win the big games and that is what is missing.

        • cube

          I think you’re mistaking good coaching for having players that don’t quit.

          • Chuck

            Not excusing the coaches because they are the one that are allowing this crap to go on, but you can only coach and prepare so much, at some point its about executing and performing and just out right fighting your ass off. Which we do not have.

  20. cube

    I can definitely see McGarity firing Richt at the end of the 2013 regular season if we don’t win the East this year or next year. The buyout will only be 2.4 million at that point.

    • AthensHomerDawg

      If it gets to that point I don’t believe McGarity will have to fire Richt. I agree with you. This year and next will answer a lot of our questions.

      • cube

        Interesting. So you think Richt would just walk away in that situation and let us keep the buyout?

        • Normaltown Mike

          he’s been telegraphing his desire to leave coaching and focus on the ministry for several years now. Two examples: (1) Katherine enrolls in nursing school to be better trained for mission work (2) CMR sells his house on Lake Hartwell in order to have more resources to give to charity. These two items together paint a picture of someone interested in doing something else with his life, sooner rather than later.

          • cube

            Yeah, I’m aware of that stuff. The point remains that he would have to say “I’m leaving” and leave the buyout on the table.

            I guess he and McGarity could always work it out behind the scenes where it appears to be Richt’s choice publicly but he still gets the buyout (or a portion of it).

            • AthensHomerDawg

              That’s probably what would happen. I just can’t believe McGarity would “Fire” him. It shouldn’t happen like Shula at Bama. I don’t believe Mark Richt would stay if he couldn’t turn it around. We have plenty of lawdawgs and accountantdawgs. Very good ones. I would expect them to be prudent and make it a win win. If they let it get ugly I would be sorely “vexed and disappointed”. That was a phrase my father should to share with me. I NEVER wanted to see him “vexed and disappointed”. ;-) He’s our head ball coach. I hope we weather this!

          • Debby Balcer

            It amazes me how many people believe that he can’t do both. Mission work does not have to be fulltime in a mission field in fact most people don’t do that. Mission work does not need to be done only in foreign countries. Kathryn can work on the mission field in Athens in the health industry. Free clinics need nurses in the US.

            • AthensHomerDawg

              Ageed! Frankly, with the suffering we have in our own back yard we better start looking after it. For its population, the Classic City (ACC) is the poorest in our nation. Plenty of work that needs doing here. I do think that CMR would want to be involved full time.

  21. PNWDawg

    Reading your post I can’t help but wonder if you are ok with our coaching situation if we continue each year to be Outback Bowl bound?

  22. Will Trane

    Rodney Garner is the D line position coach in Todd Grantham’s 3-4 scheme. Sometimes they go to a four man front. Rodney Garner is the assistant head coach. Rodney Garner is the recruiting coordinator.
    Those three articles subtely reiterate issues about Richt’s coaching and management of players, coaches, game prep / plan, and the schedule .
    First, the players. We never seem to have a full roster at the beginning of the season due to suspensions. No one pointed this out more matterly a fact than Steve Spurrier leading up to the Carolina game. He would have preferred to play us in the second or third game because we always have key players suspended. This goes to the use of Malcolm Mitchell. Due to those suspensions and other recruited players leaving Mitchell had to go over to the secondary. Mitchell told all of us this was an adjustment for him in the SEC and in getting back into the O scheme. Now we hear he spent 10-20% of last week back with the D. After his mishandling of the UT punt inside the 5 I commented about putting him on one side of the ball and leaving him. Bennett goes down on Tuesday. Mitchell is being worked back into the O after being in SEC and coming off a tough injury. Mitchell and Bennett are go to players. They are play makers. Bennett is out. How many times did the Bobo use Mitchell in the Carolina game. Mitchell made pass catch to put the Dawgs back in the game. 4, and it should have taken one, to put 6 on the board…emptry board with a very poor play selection after 4 tries inside the 5. Spurrier says to himself…my game now, watch how I use Shaw and Lattimore.
    Players. What has happened to the players we recruit under Rodney Garner’s tutelage. Several on the Dream Team are gone. Start the season with 4 players suspended. 2 miss almost a fourth of the season. Coaches have to reshuffle and re work preseason schemes, game plans, drills due to this. When you look at the rosters on other SEC teams and non-conference teams how many kids do you see from Georgia. Well it is shocking. How many did Carolina have? How many did Middle Tennessee have against Tech?
    Game plan, game prep, and game management. Rodney Garner. Those are your three position players on the D line. They are absolutely critical in the 3-4 scheme. Carolina only passed 10 times, and everyone counted because they threw when and where they needed. But look at how Carolina’s O line, their sets, and two players ran the ball down the D’s throat. But this has been an issue since game one. Why? This is a veteran front with veteran players sitting behind them. Many of us want to know what has happened in the three man front. Saturday I plan to watch the LSU – Carolina game. Primary focus. Chavis’s 4 man front and how he defends the old ball coach. Let’s see how many carries Shaw and Lattimore get together in that game.
    Todd Grantham. How many receivers have been open in all the games this season. Way to many in both the Tennessee and Carolina game. Open has a new meaning in the secondary. This looks first year players’ first game of the season for games 5 & 6.
    Stever Spurrier openly says that his defense is all Lorenzo Ward’s area. He was co-D coordinator in the past. Raises the question. He is very good and the guy who left did not matter. And Spurrier knew it.
    Coach Richt. Do you have issues re roster management, performacne of recruiter, D line coach, and D coordinator. No subtely any more. Think it is there.

  23. SemperFiDawg

    Does it strike anyone as ironic that the only difference between the sentiments being expressed here and on the Auburn, Arkansas, and U.T. Message boards is the Head Coaches name. While it may be fitting on those boards, here it’s absurd. Those programs (Auburn in particular) should serve as a reminder that while a National Championship is nice, there can be only one winner annually, while the other end of the spectrum can be dark and dismal. Personally I think the comments reflect more upon us as fans. It boils down to one simple question really. Do we keep Richt who has proven he will both keep us competitive and run a clean program, or do we replace him with someone who has a ‘win at all cost’ philosophy. You can’t have both.

    • cube

      Ah yes, the fear factor defense. I see there’s no mention of the coaches that Alabama, LSU, Ohio State, and Texas pushed aside in the last 20-30 years and the successes that followed.

      • Mayor of Dawgtown

        Can we take your response to mean that you favor the “win at all cost” philosophy?

        • cube

          Can I take your response to mean that you think those schools “win at all costs”?

          I find it strange that someone who claims to be against “winning at all costs” is also whining and moaning about about our suspension policies and our police force being too strict (see further up on the page for these posts).

          But, by all means, continuing flushing the bowl of circular logic. Whatever it takes to make anyone criticizing our $3 million head coach tired.

          • Scorpio Jones, III

            (This is probably a mistake) No, cube, what he is saying, if the Mayor will allow me, is that Georgia plays with different rules, different institutional guidelines than any of the schools you mention.

            This is not to knock those schools, they set their rules, we set ours.

            But it would be helpful to your sanity if you at least acknowledge that compared to at least some of the schools on your list, Georgia’s rules give Draconian a whole new meaning.

            I am not acknowledging that any of your schools “win at all costs”, although there is some evidence at least one of them may have at least explored that option.

            Just sayin that Georgia’s rules are different.

            • AthensHomerDawg

              And those rules put us a disadvantage that other schools don’t have to deal with and it impacts our w/l record.

              • cube

                If we have such strict rules and standards in place, why are you afraid some other coach is going to come in here and get us in a heap of trouble? We shouldn’t have to worry about that at all if we’re playing by a different set of rules (rules that we put in place ourselves).

                • Scorpio Jones, III

                  uhh, cube, “why are you afraid some other coach is going to come in here and get us in a heap of trouble?”

                  I musta missed it, did somebody say that somewhere?

                  • cube

                    That’s one of the most popular fear tactics used to argue against changing coaches. I’ve seen it up and down the comments section of this blog for a couple of days now.

                    But I apologize for lumping you and AHD in with them if that’s not the case.

                  • cube

                    Actually, SemperFiDawg, the one who started this thread, said something along those lines…

                    “Do we keep Richt who has proven he will both keep us competitive and run a clean program, or do we replace him with someone who has a ‘win at all cost’ philosophy. You can’t have both.”

                • AthensHomerDawg

                  I didn’t mean to imply that. Let me take another shot. Part of the reason for the loss vs Boise and perhaps uSC was the suspensions that we had. Point being we self inflicted that gunshot wound on ourselves. Something other schools don’t have to endure. OBC (Mr. Five Strikes) kept a binge drinking qb on the team because his 2nd choice wasn’t ready. He won an east title with that business plan. I think the AD finally called bs on the OBC. Are we not at a competitive disadvantage when we suspend kids that other schools would and do continue to play? The night before a bowl game didn’t Spurrier’s intoxicated qb have 3 ladies in his hotel room …. two of them minus clothing when a state trooper checked on a disturbance complaint. “I don’t mind tellin’ ya!” Man….. that is some player eligibility flexibility right there.

          • AthensHomerDawg

            Well…..didn’t OSU push the win at all cost envelope a bit?

            • Scorpio Jones, III

              Yup…seems lak that to me….but hey, I am not a TOSU fan, so my perspective might be different. :-)

          • I wouldn’t trade coaches with Texas. Would you?

      • SemperFiDawg

        With all due respect, I think the term ‘reality factor’ is more appropriate than ‘fear factor’. The reality is that your statement ‘” I see there’s no mention of the coaches that Alabama, LSU, Ohio State, and Texas pushed aside in the last 20-30 years…” strengthens my assertion that its impossible to hire a coach that can guarantee a NC. You named 4 people hired over the course of 30 years. Keep in mind that none of the four mentioned would have or could have guaranteed the crystal. At the time of their hire the best that their fans could say was that they hired someone that, given their past history, gave them a shot. That’s all that anyone can realistically ask. What I’m asking you to consider is the flip side of the coin. There’s a very real chance that the replacement not only doesn’t live up to expectations but worse, sinks the program. We don’t have to reach back 30 years to find examples of programs that have been led into this wilderness by their boosters and fans: see Arkansas with Petrino/John L. Smith, Tennessee with Kiffin/Dooley, Auburn with…….anyone, etc, ad nauseam and that’s just the coaches that didn’t/haven’t won. You can add a whole other category of bad hires that either won or didn’t , but in the end destroyed their programs due to their lack of morals i.e. Penn State, USC, Miami, UNC. My point is that I’m confident Richt will keep us competitive thereby giving us a shot every year, and I don’t ever see him sinking our program through unethical behavior. I simply don’t know what more we as fans can REASONABLY expect.

        • Mayor of Dawgtown

          The operative word being “reasonably” which apparently has disappeared from the minds of some.

  24. W Cobb Dawg

    Kind of crazy to talk about getting rid of a coach who’s 5-1. It’s a rotten position to be in as a fan, as I think most agree CMR isn’t going to make any changes which would put UGA in an mnc. CMR is the one who needs to explain what he’s gonna do to put us on top. His silence on this problem is deafening.

    • Scorpio Jones, III

      Do you really think what you call Richt’s silence is self imposed? I don’t.

      Something that I think needs to be said is that considering Richt’s professional resume, is there any doubt Mark Richt knows what it would take to at least level the playing field slightly? Or that Mark Richt’s immediate supervisor has some idea?

      • NateG

        That’s a pretty excellent point, and one that I think perfectly illustrates why this is so frustrating for a lot of us. It’s inconceivable that Richt and McGarity don’t know what’s wrong or how to fix it. They’ve been a part of winning programs in the past. They see what the winning programs are doing now. It’s not that they don’t know what to do. The question is why aren’t they doing it? Why do we still have 1 or 2 pants-shittingly awful meltdowns every year?

        There are obviously problems that go beyond suspensions. These problems have solutions. Richt and McGarity most likely know the solutions. Why are we not seeing any results?

        • AthensHomerDawg

          “The question is why aren’t they doing it? ” Or why can’t they do it?

        • Scorpio Jones, III

          Because Jan Kemp is absolutely, positively, not dead. We have different rules…rules that were promulgated in the wake of the most embarrassing moment in the history of the University… to a certain set of folks, and in the aftermath we “unilaterally disarmed”….I am getting tired of banging away at this…folks, it is true, no shit, WE HAVE A DIFFERENT SET OF RULES.

          It is not the job of either Greg McGarity or Mark Richt to demand those rules be changed, they just have to work within them or march on down the road.

          That a coach of Mark Richt’s obvious qualifications and track record chooses to continue to grind away is, frankly considering the way things are in the coaching profession these days, amazing.

          That things will change I have no doubt, but it will not be overnight, and it will not be easy or always pleasant.

          The question you have to ask yourself as Georgia fans, a question I have asked myself, are you MAN ENOUGH to hang in there?
          (please accept that Man Enough, in this context, is asexual)

          Some of us seem to think this is an easy fix, even that Mark Richt’s job is an easy job…all that money, all those resources.

          Well he does have all that, but he also has all those rules, too.

          Mark Richt has MANNED UP….can the fan base do that?

          Trust me, Jan Kemp is a long way from dead yet.
          :-)

      • W Cobb Dawg

        Yes, after 11.5 seasons and last weeks game I have plenty of doubt about CMR’s ability to deliver a mnc. His ‘resume’ is entirely at FSU, where they steamrolled over inferior opponents for a decade before a few stronger teams joined the acc and turned the tables. Furthermore, if CMR knows what needs to be done, he isn’t doing it. I think you’d agree that we experience pretty much the same problems year over year, like the OL or unfilled schollys. Once in a while we throw in a completely new way to f–k up like s&c or directional kicks to keep things interesting.

        I really don’t know whether we should keep CMR or replace him. Either option has plenty of pitfalls. What I am saying is that the past several seasons show he isn’t compelled or capable of fixing things on his own. So a year from now or 5 years from now, CMR still won’t have an mnc. And we’ll still be wondering ‘what if’. I.e. – ‘what if’ CMR finally got things together OR ‘what if’ we hired somebody else.

        As said in a recent comment, I’ve accepted that we’re not a top tier program and CMR is not a championship coach. I hope CMR proves me wrong some day – the sooner the better.

        • My Son was friends with Nick Jr.. I could tell you some stories about the drug situation that was going on in Tuscaloosa when Saban took over.

          On Wed, Oct 10, 2012 at 5:12 PM, Get The Picture wrote:

          > ** > W Cobb Dawg commented: “Yes, after 11.5 seasons and last weeks game I > have plenty of doubt about CMR’s ability to deliver a mnc. His ‘resume’ is > entirely at FSU, where they steamrolled over inferior opponents for a > decade before a few stronger teams joined the acc and turned th” >

  25. DawgPhan

    losing is certainly good for the blog business…

  26. Always Someone Else's Fault

    Exactly what sorts of constraints does Georgia’s administration impose on Richt that other coaches don’t have to deal with?

    How do those constraints impact the field?

    What benefits does the University gain from those restrictions that exceed the costs?

    If all of these constraints plausibly make up the difference in 35-7, I’m all ears.

    I am NOT on the “fire Richt” bandwagon, but I do not understand some of the rationales being offered in defense of the notion that this is the high water mark for the Georgia football program.

    • Scorpio Jones, III

      Just a minor deal, really, is the drug testing and punishment policy. The last time I looked at the comparison chart, only one school in the SEC had the same stated policy as Georgia…I don’t even remember who it was.

      If our drug policy was just the same as everybody else’s, The Mayor’s earlier point about suspensions affecting the defense would, in fact, be moot, would it not?

      And there are many others involving recruiting, admission to the university and on and on.

      Do any of our football players live in a hotel?

      Did this stuff get us beat 35-7….hell, I don’t know, but I know it did not help.

      If the playing field was level, would we win every game…nope, prolly not….see Bama last year, but at least we could start from the same place.

      • Always Someone Else's Fault

        I still think I’m seeing a “well, it’s self-evident” sort of thing here. Does Georgia have higher admission standards for football players than Alabama? I doubt it. Does Georgia limit recruiting beyond SEC and NCAA rules in ways that other SEC schools don’t? Again, I’ve seen nothing to that effect. Richt’s policies here seem to be his own. Does dealing with a large NCAA investigation help a program either in the short term or in the long run? Again, that seems questionable to me.

        The idea that other SEC schools are willing to go places that Georgia isn’t, and that the powers-that-be are willing to accept a nearly annual result like Saturday night over the course of each season, just seems a real stretch to me.

        I enjoy your posts, and I am just trying to understand the assumptions at work on this one thing.

        • Mayor of Dawgtown

          I think SJ,III is right. There is a “foot on the team’s neck” thing going on . I wrote an extensive post about this a year or 2 ago. Last time I heard about this issue UGA DOES have higher admissions standards than other SEC schools (at least some) and higher than the minimum required by the NCAA. Also, some of this is self-inflicted. UGA will not oversign as a University/Athletic Department policy. That is one very obvious thing that puts the Dawgs at a disadvantage over Bama, for example. Saban oversigns to gain an advantage over others in 2 ways for the most part. First, he looks at how each player is performing and if someone doesn’t measure up–they’re gone and replaced by a new signee who gets the first guy’s scholarship. If that guy doesn’t measure up–he’s gone, too. They get a whole lot more looks at players in a real environment that way at Bama. If Saban signs 30 players a year and someone else signs 25 players a year, after 4 years Saban has had 20 more kids go through his place than the other guy. That’s 25% more over 4 years–a distinct advantage. Second, at the end of each year Saban looks to see what he needs: LBs, TEs, O-Linemen, D-Linemen, RBs, etc. Let’s say he decides that he is deficient in LBs but has too many TEs. He simply jerks the scholly of the bottom one or two TEs EVEN THOUGH THEY ARE DOING EVERYTHING RIGHT and uses the open space to sign a couple more LBs. This is what some on this blog have been referring to as “win at all costs.” The question is: Do you want the UGA football program to conduct itself the same way? CMR won’t do that but even if he wanted to McGarity and Adams won’t let him. They had a press conference and said so about a year ago.

          • Scorpio Jones, III

            Further, there is a “faculty admission committee” (I can’t remember the exact name, but it is there…that passes on whether any student athlete is suitable for admission to the university.

            At least two high profile recruits had wound up out on their ear after signing a scholarship by this process.

            One, or both of these particular kids wound up at Missy State, one of them is a starting linebacker in the NFL.

            At some point it was decided the university could no longer talk about these turndowns, but they still do happen.

            The point is, that following Jan Kemp many, many rules were changed or adjusted to make sure the tail was not wagging the dog. Chuck Knapp was fairly even handed in the application of this stuff, Mr. Adams has been Draconian. This was one way Adams regained some of the faculty support he had lost through some of his early moves.

            All I can tell you for sure is that Georgia is both harder to get into and harder to stay in than any other school in the SEC.

            And, for what it is worth, a Nick Saban for instance would never take a job that is self-regulated to the point that success on the field is impacted by rules of the administration.

            Nick Saban does what his university allows him to do. Mark Richt does the same.

            • Mayor of Dawgtown

              What we have been discussing is exactly why changing coaches would have minimal effect. Also, do you really think a top HC would leave a good situation to come here with all these additional restrictions being placed on him? The systemic problems are the real thing holding UGA back IMHO. What we need is a new President who is not a self promoting asshole and puts the school ahead of his own advancement. If only we could get rid of Adams…er…wait….

              • shane#1

                The trustees are getting what they want. Money. Not only is the HC’s salary middling, so are his assistants salaries. UGa will not put the money out there to get a top of the line coach. If Richt is fired some small school up and comer or a young assistant will be hired. Right now I would just as soon stay with Richt, I think he will retire in a couple of years anyway.

                • AthensHomerDawg

                  ” I think he will retire in a couple of years anyway.” Yes he will. He will try his best not to leave the cupboard bare.

                  • Dog in Fla

                    Or stick around as long as Bobby Bowden. Why would Mark (or anyone else for that matter) voluntarily give up + or – $3M per year?

                    • AthensHomerDawg

                      You make a valid point. SOoooo ….. is Mark RIcht that guy who holds on even with all the evidence against him (if the evidence is against him) just to play the system and make the benjamins? I think not. I hope not. We shall see though. I felt like Bowden at FSU ended badly. Paterno at Penn State certainly did. Richt and his wife are a team. I don’t know if you are married. I am. My wife holds great sway in my life. And our son’s lives. She is a talented and smart professional…top of her field. She gets in my stuff if I get too prideful. I think Ms. RIcht is cut from the same cloth.
                      Just a thought.

                    • Behind every Great Man is a Great Woman.

                      On Wed, Oct 10, 2012 at 6:37 PM, Get The Picture wrote:

                      > ** > AthensHomerDawg commented: “You make a valid point. SOoooo ….. is > Mark RIcht that guy who holds on even with all the evidence against him (if > the evidence is against him) just to play the system and make the > benjamins? I think not. I hope not. We shall see though. I felt like Bowd” >

            • Always Someone Else's Fault

              Georgia’s offering the same players as everybody else. This blog routinely discusses the whims of kids choosing between Alabama, Georgia, Auburn, etc. I do see a marginal difference there, but I would argue that the effects attributed to it are overstated.

              Stanford recruits a killer O-line. So does Wisconsin, which has a stellar academic reputation. I cold go on. In fact, O-line would seem to be the one position group least sensitive to the issues you discuss – and yet it’s the one position group that never seems to stabilize for this team.

              We can argue all day whether or not Saban pulls scholarships solely to maximize the roster. For example, I see plenty of names on the roster from his 2009 class that never see meaningful snaps, but there they are. That’s at least some evidence that his program has a path for kids who are never going to start, which flies against the conventional wisdom favored here and elsewhere with respect to St. Nick. I am not defending the man, but the assumptions we’re making here about the extent of the differences and the causes we can attribute to them seems a stretch to me in a lot of ways.

  27. Z-Dawg

    We pay out 1.5 – 3 million dollars per year for 2-3 cupcakes to come get beat (4-6 wins/ 2 years). We play Vandy and Kentucky every year (4 wins/ 2 years) and get to rotate a weaker SEC west team at least every other year (1 win/ 2 years). The majority of FBS coaches given UGA’s resources should be at least splitting the series’ with USC*, Auburn, UT, Mizz, and GT (5 wins/ 2 years). Assuming we always lose to UF and Bama/LSU it seems that we should still have around 14-16 wins on the schedule every 2 years or 7-8 wins per year. Have a good year with the 2nd tier SEC slate and you have won 9-10 games in a season while still getting beat by the top tier and whatever UF happens to be at that time. If this is what you are content with then Mark Richt is the coach for you. I am of the opinion that the level of success Mark Richt has enjoyed could have been replicated by many others who just needed the wonderful opportunity UGA provides.

    • DawgPhan

      so CMR does better than CMR. interesting take.

    • Mayor of Dawgtown

      The UGA brass wouldn’t do the cupcake thing if it were not profitable. They pay’em $500,000 to $1,000,000 and gross $8,000,000 to $9,000,000. That’s really why they do it, not just for an easy win. Not having to play a return game at the other team’s place is a really good benefit, too.

  28. NC Dawg

    I have no problem with the drug-testing and suspensions. In fact, I would never have handed their jobs back as soon as the suspensions were finished. I’d had put them at second string and had them work their way up. Rambo clearly has not had his head right or the rust off for the past two games.
    No, I can live with losing; it’s hard to live with being manhandled when our recruits are as ballyhooed and as big as they are. At USC we looked like boys agains men. EVERY O lineman looked intimidated. Surely not EVERY USC D lineman is an all america.. Play hard and get beat, no problem. Quit, problem.

    • Mayor of Dawgtown

      See my post on oversigning above. That is why we are short on O-linemen. Under the Saban method that never happens.

      • Cosmic Dawg

        Come on. Are you saying that out of 80 scholarships we can’t figure out how to have 8 offensive linemen ready to play every year, even with attrition, suspensions, and injuries? We still play with 11 on each side of the ball, right?

        This whole meme that somehow Georgia can’t compete because goshdarnit we’re just too honest, and our opponents are all evil menaces is getting tired.

        • Always Someone Else's Fault

          Agreed. I should have posted here. See above.

        • Mayor of Dawgtown

          Hey, I didn’t say I was in favor of CMR, McGarity and Adams’ position on this. I’m just reporting what is going on. Draw your own conclusions about what effect it has. But having fewer players go through your program than the competition can’t be good.

          • Cosmic Dawg

            I may have misunderstood you. I think just signing the minimum would be a good start for us, in any event.

            • Mayor of Dawgtown

              On this blog for over 2 years I have repeatedly posted that CMR’s roster management has been downright stupid. I think he has woken up to that and plans to sign a class of about 35 this next time.

  29. NC Dawg

    And… Special Teams has NOT been fixed; not at all. Never seen a team with this soft of recruiting talent unable to put a potential game-breaker back to return punts. That’s why were try to fair-catch most of them. Nobody is afraid of our special teams, except UGA fans.

    • AthensHomerDawg

      rules, OL development, not special team play, suspensions. Which of these is fixable and which are not. Cause they are killing us.

      • Mayor of Dawgtown

        I have been critical on this blog of not having a ST coach for at least 2 years now.

        • Scott W.

          There are only something like 2 in the NCAA. We’ve proven that we need one though, that’s for sure.

          • Mayor of Dawgtown

            There is usually someone who has overall responsibility for ST even if he is not the ST co-ordinater per se. Urban Meyer and Frank Beamer do it themselves. That’s how important STs are to them. It’s not a coincidence that Florida and VT had some of the best STs in college football.

  30. Chuck

    What does suspensions and the way we run our program have anything to do with Saturday. All of our players were available Saturday and played and got whipped.!

  31. Debby Balcer

    http://espn.go.com/blog/sec/post/_/id/52573/winning-against-teams-that-finish-in-the-top-25 interesting read especially in light of Richt being around much longer than any other SEC coach.

  32. Skeptic Dawg's Better Half Relative

    The question I ask myself is whether Richt and his system, his staff, his way of managing coaches and players and drug policies, his thinking, his way of doing things and his coaching ability among so many things that surround any head coach are going to get us to where we want to be. In 3 years? In 5 years? For several consecutive years? That level being SEC Championship wins. BCS bowls or what ever you call the playoff, a national title game, and the feeling and data that show the program is headed in an upward direction. Yes, this last statement encompasses so many intangibles, but hopefully you get the premise of my thinking.
    I am not here to say where I stand on Richt as my relative Skeptic does, but merely to state how I approach the Richt matter with personal flair.

    • Scorpio Jones, III

      Skeptic, I hope you don’t mind me talkin to yo wife, or momma or whoever is posting above, but here’s my answer to your questions.

      I think you have to look at whether there is any real, honest to God support for taking the program to that next level at the administrative level of the university.

      It is my contention that as long as the money keeps coming in, the current administration is perfectly content with the football program as it is.

      When the current administration came to power, there was a massive wailing and moaning among the leather-elbow-patched university intelligentsia that football had become too important. This group could stand in horror and point to Jan Kemp and all the negative ink that deal generated.

      The current administration had goals of “restoring the prestige of the University of Georgia”

      Will that goal, which encompasses rules which no other SEC coach has to deal with…not even close…change with a new administration?

      Unless and until the Board of Regents, who hired the current administrator, becomes interested in hiring a counterpoint to the current administrator, I fear this is what we got.

      My suspicion is that whoever the coach of Georgia’s football team may be, he will never have the administrative commitment Nick Saban currently has at his university.

      Does this mean we will never win another national championship? Nope…but does this mean we will be in contention, as Bama is again, for the national championship every year….probably not.

      We are, after all, Georgia, not Bama. For better or worse.

      Richt with flair, indeed.

      • AthensHomerDawg

        Well done. Now I really feel bummed. I fear you are right . If “taxes are what we pay for a civilized society” 9 and 10 win seasons are what we pay for “We are, after all, Georgia, not Bama. For better or worse.”
        I’m still in the doldrums after that azz whipping in Chickumbia. I think uSC fans will challenge Vol fans (from the 90’s) for being pricks. Zou fans have no clue what they bought into.
        go dawgs….wof …wof…. ….

  33. Rebar

    We are 5-1 and ranked in the top 15. Last year Coach Richt had a contract extension for, what, 2 years? The knuckleheads calling for his ouster have no idea of what firing a winning coach would do to the recruiting. I, for one, am standing behind the team and coaches, and hope we show marked improvement against Florida. Those who want a Saban or Spurrier should go ahead and be Bama fans or Carolina fans. Coach Richt is a good man and coach, and anyone who can’t see that is blind or unwilling. If Vince Dooley were held to these same standards, he would never have seen the 1980 team!

    • Carolinadawg

      It will be interesting to see what continuing to lose to virtually every ranked team we play does to recruiting. My guess is most of these kids want to play for championships, not for a trip to the Outback Bowl.

      • Cosmic Dawg

        Well, there just aren’t enough championship teams for all those kids, are there? So God bless ‘em, some of those poor, poor children are just going to have to come play for us at Georgia.

        Good grief.

    • cube

      Vince Dooley coached in the state of Georgia before the demographic shifts moved us way up the list in terms of high school football talent and money. The comparison isn’t appropriate.

  34. Coop

    Let’s compare APPLES TO APPLES.

    Richt, in his first 5 years at UGA, won 66% of games vs ranked teams.
    Miles, in his first 5 years at LSU, won less vs. ranekd team than Richt did in Richt’s first 5 years at UGA.
    Saban in his first 4 years at Bama, won less than Richt in his first 4 years at UGA vs. ranked teams.

    To compare Richt’s years 7-11 years at UGA, to Sabans’s 1-4 at Bama, is APPLES TO ORANGES.

    Let’s see how team adapt to Bama and LSU in 5 years, bet they won’t be winning more than 40% vs. ranked teams, IF saban or Miles stick around long enough to find out.

    Urban’s record took a big dive his last season at UF, and Meyer split.

    • cube

      If you’re saying coaches are less effective the longer they’re around, you’re actually making the case against keeping Richt around.

      How bout them apples?!

    • I love when someone does the research and gives us the facts! I have a Grandson named Cooper and we call him Coop. Love IT!

      On Wed, Oct 10, 2012 at 7:21 PM, Get The Picture wrote:

      > ** > Coop commented: “Let’s compare APPLES TO APPLES. Richt, in his first 5 > years at UGA, won 66% of games vs ranked teams. Miles, in his first 5 years > at LSU, won less vs. ranekd team than Richt did in Richt’s first 5 years at > UGA. Saban in his first 4 years at Bama, won” >

    • Carolinadawg

      Let’s compare how many conference and national championships Miles and Saban have won, as compared to Saint Mark. Those are the meaningful comparisons.

  35. Coop

    Compare Richt to Bear Bryant.

    Bear Bryant in his 7-11th Head Coaching years:
    year 7, 8-4
    year 8, 5-4-2
    year 9, 7-2-1
    year 10, 1-9
    year 11, 7-2

    Or Look at Bryant’s 10th – 13th year seasons at Bama:
    10th, 8-2
    11th, 8-3
    12th, 6-5
    13th, 6-5

    It happens, even to the greatest of all-time.

    • cube

      Years 7-9 were at Kentucky. As we all know, Kentucky is not Georgia. Not even close.

      Years 10 & 11 were his first 2 years at A&M. Dumb comparison.

      As for his years at Alabama, in years 7-9 (the years immediately preceding your selected years), he went 10-1, 9-1-1, and 11-0 with 3 SEC Championships and 2 national championships. That goes along with his first national championship in year 4 at Bama and a 10-1 season in year 5. Bryant had 6 conference championships and 3 national championships by the time your years started (2 of the conf titles were won at Kentucky and A&M). If Richt had come anywhere even close to that level of success before he entered his still ongoing lull, I’d be more inclined to give credence to what you’re trying to do.

    • Carolinadawg

      You conveniently left out the fact that Bryant’s first 9 years were at Maryland and Kentucky, 2 schools that were even more backwater at that time than they are now. In has first 9 years at Bama, he won 4 conference titles and finished first in the AP poll 3 times.

  36. Cosmic Dawg

    Also,

    Wah wah wah.

    Wahwah wah wahwah wah, wah wah wah.

    Wah wah wah wah wah wah wah wah wah wah!! Wahwahwah wahwah wah wah wah wah wahwah, wahwah wahwah wahwahwahwahwah!!!

    Wahwahwahwahwahwahwahwahwahwahwahwahwahwahwahwahwahwahwahwahwahwahwahwahwahwahwahwahwahwahwahwahwahwahwahwahwahwahwahwahwahwahwahwahwahwahwahwahwahwahwahwahwahwahwahwahwahwahwahwahwahwahwahwahwahwahwahwahwahwahwahwahwahwahwahwahwahwahwahwahwahwahwahwahwahwahwahwahwahwahwahwahwahwahwahwahwahwahwahwahwahwahwahwahwahwahwahwahwahwahwahwahwahwahwahwahwahwahwahwahwahwahwahwahwahwahwah.

  37. The way I look at it, 5 other SEC teams have won national titles. We haven’t. So clearly we can do better. The coaches at those other 5 SEC schools won their first title in 4 years or less. Since 2000:

    2011: Alabama (5 years)
    2010: Auburn (2 years)
    2009: Alabama (3 years)
    2008: Florida (4 years)
    2007: LSU (3 years)
    2006: Florida (2 years)
    2005: Texas (8 years)
    2004: USC (4 years)
    2003: LSU (4 years)
    2002: Ohio State (2 years)
    2001: Miami (1 year)
    2000: Oklahoma (2 years)

    Average: 3.3 years
    Most Common: 2 years (4 times)
    Longest: 8 years
    Shortest: 1 year

    • You know I want to give up on Mark Richt and move on. But every asinine argument against him brings me back. How do those teams with 1 loss better than Richt’s 2nd year? What about 2007? Every team wet the bed that year. I want to ask everyone that uses this MNC thing the following. How can you use that when the process to even play for one is so suspect. TWICE in the BCS era a team that lost BADLY in their conf championship game went on to play for all the marbles. Oklahoma lost 7-35 (does that score sound familiar) and Nebraska got beat 36-62 and yet they played in the BCS Championship game. Do you think Miles and Chizik are better coaches? I sure don’t.

      • Rick

        The other problem is that the list doesn’t even mention the excellent programs that have never played for a title. To remove that bias, I like to point out that there has never been a year in which the reigning BCS champion won the MNC. That’s 14 teams that started in the top 10, usually in the top 5 and frequently #1, that failed to win the championship. Luck plays as big a role as any in determining if you even get to sniff the title game.

  38. Coop

    If Bear Bryant went 5-4 in his 8th year as a Head Coach, it says something.

    If Bear Bryant’s such a great coach, and he was, why did he go 6-5 in his 12th AND 13th seasons at Bama?

    Like I said, it happens to the BEST of coaches, ESPCIALLY those like Mark Richt who stay a long time at the SAME SCHOOL (something Meyer, Miles or Saban will never experience)

    • Always Someone Else's Fault

      Plenty of coaches have 6-5 efforts 12 and 13 years into their gigs. The one you chose as your comparison also had 3 national titles plus an undefeated, uncrowned team on his resume by year 10.

      69 and 70 were Alabama’s last two all-white rosters. Even Georgia fans old enough to remember do remember Sam Bam Cunningham.

      1971 also launched Alabama’s wishbone, which generated 3 more national titles and 6 more conference championships over 11 years.

      Beneath the “fire/keep Richt” sniping, we seem to have two arguments going here, and I don’t see how Bryant relates to either one of them:

      1) What are some plausible reasons to explain the nearly annual ritual of a game like SC, essentially no-showing for a season-defining game?
      2) Is this a high water mark for Georgia football? Is this as good as fans should expect?

      • Carolinadawg

        Yes, the underlying socio-demographic issue eliminates much of this Bryant nonsense. As does his accomplishments prior to “slump”.

  39. Coop

    Richt’s teams have finished in the top 10 in the nation 20 times in the last 25 seasons.

    That’s UNRIVALED IN NCAA HISTORY. No other coach ever has, or ever will, match that.

    FSU finished in the top 5 14x in a row while Richt was on staff, and have never done it since Richt left.

  40. CMR can’t seem to win the big game anymore, if you DAWG fans are content with 10 wins per year over sisters of the poor, let’s keep him at UGA 4 ever! If you want to win a NC, CMR got to go! I just don’t think CMR’s got the fire in the belly anymore to get it done!

  41. Coop

    Folks said the same thing about Bear Bryant in his 12th and 13th seasons at Bama when he went 6-5 both times. Bryant couldn’t win the “big game” anymore. And he later went back to winning big games just like he’d done before.

    • Carolinadawg

      As pointed out above, that was due to his refusal to recruit African-American players. You need to learn a little more about the background of the situations you cite.

  42. Scorpio Jones, III

    Still at it are we? At least now we are disproving that Bear was any good.
    Always good to see folks trying to do that.

    • Where does that CD, Certifiably Delusional, get this stuff. Mr Gather Spradling God rest his soul was personal friends with The Bear, He was a Great Coach and did much for African Americans in the days when, in Alabama others were against him. Mr Spradling had ALL THE MONEY and made sure that some of those Black Players got the advantages they needed together with THE BEAR.

      On Thu, Oct 11, 2012 at 8:47 AM, Get The Picture wrote:

      > ** > Scorpio Jones, III commented: “Still at it are we? At least now we are > disproving that Bear was any good. Always good to see folks trying to do > that.” >

      • Carolinadawg

        What exactly is your question, as I don’t know what you mean by:
        “Where does that CD, Certifiably Delusional, get this stuff.”

        The FACT is, that Bryant and Bama had no African-American players until 1971. That is a fact. The additional FACT is that Bryant and Bama lost 13 games during the 1968, 1969 and 1970 seasons. From 1971 to 1981, he had 6, 1 loss seasons, 1 perfect season and 3 national championships. Do think there might be a connection? Hmmmm?

        You claim to love it when posters bring facts and data to this board, but apparently only when that data agrees with your preconceived notions.

        And no, none if this is meant to reflect any negative light on Bryant. Just pointing out the background information for those who seem to either not know it, or choose ignore it. But nice try.

        • You are correct. But I know what Mr Spradling told me and how they changed that. In the late 60’s It was not BEAR BRYANT’s choice but the people who contributed to Bama that had the problem with *Black Players. Mr Gather Spradling gave the MOST MONEY. HE was behind The BEAR being able to change that at ALABAMA. I know how you love to blame everything on someone, *but it was not Bear Bryant’s fault! Smoke that HOTDOG!* *

          • Carolinadawg

            Good lord…relax a little. I’m not blaming anyone for anything. I’m pointing out some history to a poster who needs to understand the context of what he/she is posting. That is all. You need to quit looking to embarrass me. Its juvenile, and more to the point, its not working.

            • I cannot help it…You have insulted me by name calling and that is not nice.

              • Carolinadawg

                That’s funny, what name did you call me first? I’m sure Dr. Jeremiah would not be happy with you! Neither would St. Mark. Grow up.

                • I was speaking in the manor of the Great PulpWood Smith. Do you take him seriously too?

                  On Thu, Oct 11, 2012 at 7:10 PM, Get The Picture wrote:

                  > ** > Carolinadawg commented: “That’s funny, what name did you call me first? > I’m sure Dr. Jeremiah would not be happy with you! Neither would St. Mark. > Grow up.”

                  • Carolinadawg

                    Have you always had this inability to take responsibility for your actions, or is it a recent development? Onset of Alzheimer’s, perhaps?

                    Hypocrite.

                    • Are you going to ignore my question about your true identity? And who is being juvenile now? Hypocrite, Signs of Alzheimers come on.. On Thu, Oct 11, 2012 at 7:54 PM, Get The Picture wrote:

                      > ** > Carolinadawg commented: “Have you always had this inability to take > responsibility for your actions, or is it a recent development? Onset of > Alzheimer’s, perhaps? Hypocrite.” Respond to this comment by replying > above this line > New comment on *Get The Picture * > > > *Carolinadawg* commentedon Woulda, > coulda, shoulda. > > > in response to *joyridingdawg*: > > I was speaking in the manor of the Great PulpWood Smith. Do you take him > seriously too?

                • You grow up! Dr Jeremiah and St Mark are not in the judgement game like you.

                  • Carolinadawg

                    “Are you going to ignore my question about your true identity?”

                    No idea what question you’re referring to. Unlike you, don’t even bother to read all your inane posts. Really dumb to question someone’s true identity while you yourself are hiding behind a screen name.

                    • I am not hiding. Most of these Guys know who I am. For someone who does not read my “inane” post you sure do respond to everything I post. No one else does that. Again, If you are not who I think you are, I am glad. Any way he is way too smart for this kind of rhetoric

                  • Carolinadawg

                    So you think I am somebody you know? Too funny. Please enlighten me.

                    • Okay…let me ask you a question or two….Do you know how hard it is to get into vet school at UGA? Do you know how easy *it is to get into Med School in Carolina?*

                      On Thu, Oct 11, 2012 at 8:39 PM, Get The Picture wrote:

                      > ** > Carolinadawg commented: “So you think I am somebody you know? Too > funny. Please enlighten me.” >

                    • Carolinadawg

                      “Do you know how hard it is to get into vet school at UGA? Do you know how easy *it is to get into Med School in Carolina?*”

                      I have no idea what that means or what you’re referring to.

                    • Okay…Does the name O’KEEFE make you want to sing NA NA NA NA HEY HEY HEY Tech Sucks?

                      On Thu, Oct 11, 2012 at 8:55 PM, Get The Picture wrote:

                      > ** > Carolinadawg commented: “”Do you know how hard it is to get into vet > school at UGA? Do you know how easy *it is to get into Med School in > Carolina?*” I have no idea what that means or what you’re referring to.” >

                    • Carolinadawg

                      “Does the name O’KEEFE make you want to sing NA NA NA NA HEY HEY HEY Tech Sucks?”

                      No. Now do us both a favor and ignore my future posts.

                    • How about you do the same. You are the one who makes a snide comment on everything I say. Most of the time I am speaking to my good friends..like Mayor of Dawgtown, Athenshomerdawg, The Senator, SJIII, McCallanlover, DAWGINFLA, CoJones…etc, etc…

                      On Thu, Oct 11, 2012 at 9:03 PM, Get The Picture wrote:

                      > ** > Carolinadawg commented: “”Does the name OKEEFE make you want to sing > NA NA NA NA HEY HEY HEY Tech Sucks?” No. Now do us both a favor and ignore > my future posts.” >

  43. 321st! Suck on that, beaches.