For those (and judging from the comments I’ve read on message boards and blog comment threads, there are plenty of you) pointing to this week’s dismissal of three members of the Dream Team as evidence that Georgia signing less than the number of scholarships it had available is a serious flaw which must be addressed by recognizing that any given class will have some kids doomed for failure and thus adjusting the offers extended accordingly – embracing the inner thug, so to speak – could you live with the “thUGA” label sticking to the program as the price for that?
Bonus questions: are there particular positions more prone to bad behavior/stupidity than others? I mean, if it’s best for Richt to plan ahead, how detailed should those plans be?
I’m not staking a position on this – I’m as disappointed as anyone about this week’s developments – but I wonder if the dismissals are the best reason for throwing stones at Georgia’s recruiting strategy we can find.
Get The Picture 
This question never entered into my thinking. Guess I hadn’t heard much about it in the blogosphere either. I have no idea how anyone would prepare for bad apples.
This had to be done and kudos to Richt for making what had to be a difficult decision, and for doing it swiftly. That is all there is to say.
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I appreciate that we have a coach that tries to do the right thing in all areas.Let the chips fall how they may–in the long run having a man with integrity is the best for UGA–also it is important to beat florida–Do things right and beat florida and this Bulldog is happy
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+1
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Agreed, I’m glad Richt got rid of these guys. Everyone’s complaints about last week’s signing class are independent of what went down this week. However, I just can’t fathom why they didn’t want to fill up the class. We needed depth and bodies and it was obvious. If anything, OL is a position where a kid who only has 2 stars or whatever has a real chance to get developed and coached up to become a valuable contributor to the team. It’s not like WR or DB where pure athletic talent can’t be coached up. But take a green OL kid, give him some proper coaching and perfect his technique and you have something.
And I don’t want to hear about leaving extra scholarships available for the 2013 class. As was proven this week, every year there’s attrition.
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It may behoove us to target 3 to 4 marginal talents who love Uga and are good character kids with outstanding grades. These may never be starters but they could help fill depth/special teams/scout teams etc. I think this would be better than targeting questionable kids with greater talent. Of all of the guys that go to uk or vandy from Georgia, there probably are a handful we could get on as projects who we know won’t be an embarrassment.
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You can’t know anything. Zach Mettenberger came from a family that lived in Athens and worked for UGA. He was by all accounts a good kid when he came in.
Your statement that “there probably are a handful we could get on as projects who we know won’t be an embarrassment” is really troubling to me. Most of the kids we bring in, even those from rough backgrounds, wind up working their asses off with no incidents. In other words, most of these kids are not an “embarassment.”
And wouldn’t the recruitnicks go nuts if we brought in 5 2 star kids just to fill space? God forbid we don’t have room for a stud (See Omar Hunter) one year because a Blake Sailors was recruited the year before. The cry would be deafening.
I guess my point is you can’t know. I came from a good background. I got good grades in highschool (and college). I got arrested in college. Most of my friends were of the same background. Most of them got arrested at some point too.
The simple fact is we live in a culture where when something goes wrong we have to blame someone. Richt is at the top, so he gets blamed no matter what. Until he brings in nothing but high character 4 and 5 star recruits who never step out of line at the school, people are going to bitch about him. So be it.
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For what it is worth, back in the dark ages, we had an all American offensive lineman/linebacker who, the Friday night before a big game, had a disagreement with his wife. The wife spent some time in the hospital.
The lineman played the next day.
I am personally glad to see strong action taken. I was enchanted with Nick Marshall during his high school days, though he was an amazing athlete, so I am particularly saddened, but I agree with the punishment, and I blame the kids involved, not the coaching staff.
Nick Marshall signed with Georgia because, as I remember it, his dying father told him to.
Nuff said.
And I don’t care what would have happened at some other school in a state near Georgia. Sending the kids to the showers is the right thing to do.
Blaming Richt? Stupid, Stupid, Stupid….I am just glad he gets paid to make these decisions and makes them.
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What he said!
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Again: What He Said.
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+1
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The thug label has nothing to do with how many you sign anymore than does the Fulmer Cup???
If the question is would I take a chance on certain kids – yes I would because I want to win, but if they get into anything more serious than typical college shenanigans they’re out, which means I have to sign a couple of extra guys every year.
I actually think Richt does a pretty good job balancing the risks and rewards already, when I compare to other SEC programs. Wish we had signed a few more this cycle but I don’t want numbers for the sake of numbers.
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Bingo! to you , sir. Once again, some fans nit-pick to find something wrong in a great program. Can’t begin to list the inadequate thinking of some, but will try later.
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Good post, Senator.
I don’t see the dismissals last week as justification for signing the maximum # of players where possible. It’s when you consider the inevitable causes of attrition for football programs — dismissals, academic problems, transfers, injuries, NFL departures, and so on — that I think it becomes harder to defend Georgia’s recruiting strategy.
I get your point about about the unpredictable nature of the attrition. But if you look at the last four years, Georgia has signed 20-19-26-19 = 84 in the last four recruiting cycles. Take a moment to consider that those raw numbers include players like Mayes, Turene, Fields, and others who never even enrolled. Then you look at our attrition…
Bottom line, this is fine if we want to compete for SEC championships every 5-6 years, but it’s not going to get us running with elite SEC competition. We’re just not building the kind of depth you see at better programs this way. We are paper thin at important positions and we’re not stockpiling the kind of talent that makes your scout teams and second strings formidable.
There’s a lot more to it than just numbers. Georgia is behind the curve in other areas of recruiting as well, kind of like the strength and conditioning situation we had.
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Agreed Bevo
I’d be interested to know how we compare in dismissals to other major programs. I see how many we have because I read about UGA everyday, but I don’t read about any other school that closely. Only if a star player is released from another school do I really know about it.
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Well said. We have done poor job of managing our numbers. Very inefficient. If you want to compete in the SEC, maintain your integrity, and obey the letter and intent of the rules, it can be done. But you have to be very efficient in managing the numbers you have.
This has nothing to do with kicking players off the team when they deserve it. That is part of natural attrition. In this situation, if we were managing properly, we’d be 3 below the 85, at worst. At best, there’d be one or two, if not 3, grayshirts ready to step in those spots. Nothing wrong with grayshirting certain targeted players provided it is done up front from the get-to and with complete honesty. Richt has said so himself, and has used the grayshirt on occasion.
This is more about being a lot smarter than we have been when it comes to numbers and doing a lot better in recruiting by relaxing some of our self-imposed, in-house rules, so we can sign the maximum allowed when we need them.
It is not necessary to sacrifice one whit of honesty or integrity to do so. We just haven’t been doing it.
~~~
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Agree totally. Great post.
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I think Coach Richt may have to consider going to the Bama/LSU/SC philosophy if we’re to take the next step. The logical, objective part of my puny mind says that the more frogs you kiss, the more princes you find. It can be done right. Disclosure, disclosure, disclosure.
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screw that. i’d rather lose every f’n game than cheat or treat kids like shit.
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Become a Kentucky fan then. I want Georgia to win. If you don’t–get off the damn bus.
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i want to have my cake and eat it cake, too. any pussy can cheat. one of the chief reasons i have always liked richt is because he has done nothing but treat his players well (even going to meet in jail with the one’s he’s kicked off the team), watched his opponents cheat, and keep his values. remains one of the core reasons why pres adams remains a stain on the university – he brought harrick, and harrick’s even more morally challenged son, to athens. and that cheating sack brought nothing but shame and disgrace upon the university. your lack of a moral spine isn’t reason for UGA not to have one.
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Who said anything about cheating. This is about keeping up with our rivals in recruiting. If someone isn’t pulling his weight he doesn’t deserve to keep his scholarship. For cryin’ out loud at least use all the scholarships to sign real players. I repeat–if you would “rather lose every f’n game” than do the very same things that our rivals are doing then you should become a Kentucky fan. You don’t really care about winning, the team or the University of Georgia.
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Mr. Z, Please re-read my comment. I note your strong feeling, but you distorted my thoughts.
There’s also some truth to the idea that a coaching staff isn’t giving players a fair deal if it doesn’t use every means reasonably available to lead them to success.
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If you can attract enough good quality players that can stay healthy, falling short of 25 will be mitigated. Many players never see the field…but you’d better recruit ones that will if you run it lean.
On another note, I’d like to see a correlation between positions we have a problem with and the Wonderlick score for that position. The QB’s and the Linemen are the brightest with the running backs being on the other end of the spectrum. Probably doesn’t matter but it would be fun to see. Of course, don’t ask Ian (who passed out on the crapper his opinion). 😉
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DDAY – so are we going to administer a Wonderlic test to each kid during their official visit? Then we are going to use the results of a general intelligence test to determine if a recruit is going to be a “problem” while a student-athlete at Georgia.
Lest we forget our best player from 2010 had the lowest Wonderlic in his position group at the 2011 draft. He was also the 1st pick in his group, 4th overall, helped his team make the playoffs, made the Pro Bowl and (outside of a jersey selling issue) was not a problem on or off the field for UGA.
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The best teams in the country fill their rosters with SEC, Division 1 Level Scholarship Athletes. The following players were on scholarship at UGA in 2011:
Brandon Bogotay
Nathan Theus
Taylor Bradberry
Reuben Faloughi
Ty Frix
Dexter Morant
Blake Sailors
Wes Van Dyk
That is at least 8 roster spots that could have been replaced by higher level players. The reason that UGA’s special teams were so awful last year is because there are not enough quality players on the roster.
Coach Richt does not have to participate in oversigning, but he should at least do what is within the rules of filling the roster with SEC talent.
There is no way that Brandon Bogotay should have been allowed to keep a roster spot for 3 years. Faloughi was given a scholarship as a RS FRESHMAN. That is absolutely ludicrous.
Most of the other kids on the list are already receiving academic scholarships.
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Good post.
Gentry Estes at Dawgs247 reported that the following walk-ons were awarded scholarships last year:
John Bodin, OG, Jr.
Taylor Bradberry, WR, Jr.
Matthew DeGenova, OLB, Sr.
Eric Elliot, CB, Sr.
Brandon Harton, TB, RSo.
Blake Sailors, CB, RSo.
Wes Van Dyk, TB, Jr.
Jason Veal, ILB, Sr.
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Bogatay was who everyone was calling to kick when Walsh went south.
Theus was brought in to get his brother, a desperately needed 5 star play as a freshman LT.
Frix is a longsnapper and is important to the team. You have to have this guy.
Blake Sailors has saved our ass on special teams and is everything that the folks wanting to bring in dudes just to play on ST could want.
If I’m not mistaken, the others are walk-ons who earned a scholly.
If your greater point is that we should not have walk-ons get scholarships, you should back that point up. If your point is that we should do one year scholarships that must be renewed depending upon performance, just see how well that goes over with recruits.
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The amusing part about using Bogotay as an example of occupying a roster spot is that everyone’s conveniently forgotten the circumstances under which the slot opened up in the first place.
Ironic, ain’t it?
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Ok folks, its about time for my periodic “We Ain’t Bama, Won’t Ever Be, Don’t Want To Be” diatribe.
If you want to pull for a Bama wannabe, you might want to change teams.
We will be as good as we can be within the institutional atmosphere that exists. This is how it is, this is how it is going to be for the near future.
And in spite of all our lack of institutional will to be Bama, we won 10 in a row, and have a shot next season at a very good, not miraculous, but very good year.
It seems to me Mark Richt’s philosophy fits perfectly with the way things are. He offers opportunities for kids who just want to be Dawgs. And people criticize him for that.
We ain’t Bama, and thank God for that.
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I think you can hope your team updates its “best practices” for the industry without requiring a change in allegiance.
Texas is another school that has taken an innovative approach to running their football program (eg hiring outside audits from independent consultants on the entire program, front to back). It seems Georgia is usually a couple of steps behind the leaders (see eg S&C program).
I can’t speak for everyone, but to me it’s not about wanting to be “one of them” — I’m certainly not in a rush to be associated with the University of Alabama — as much as it’s about seeing your guys get up to speed with the best practices of the competition.
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I think most reasonable people will agree that awarding one-year scholarships to walk-ons is fine. If you’re not going to oversign (which is a separate argument), you’re bound to have at least a couple spots open up because a signee didn’t enroll or someone transferred during the summer or someone got kicked off the team or whatever.
However, I think most reasonable people will also agree that awarding those scholarships again for the following year before you even know what you will have open is not fine. We did that with Frix, Harton, Sailors, and Faloughi.
Are we running a charity or a major college football program?
Combine this with the fact that we left 3 other spots open on Wednesday and you can see why reasonable people are pissed. Not the 3 spots opened on Friday when Marshall, Sanders, and Seay got the boot…3 OTHER spots.
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Pretty strong rumors out there that those are slots the staff intends to use for 2013 EEs.
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Didn’t we already have 3 spots available for 2013 EEs since our 2012 numbers are well below the limit?
I was under the impression that last week’s dismissal did not impact the EE situation for 2013.
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So they don’t think that 3 of the 14 seniors will be off scholarship by spring semester? They won’t want to leave school and prepare for the NFL draft? We needed to keep 3 spots open in case they all said “to hell with the NFL”?
We also have 19 juniors that will be eligible for the NFL draft too (Geathers and Ogletree being the most realistic possibilities).
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The new “count back” rules change the math, as I understand it.
First, there is a limit on the number of early enrollees now. Second, the count back is now based on signees, as opposed to kids who are actually enrolled.
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Then if they “count back” against the number of signees from the previous year, that would give us 22 signees for 2012 and still leave 3 “signee” spots open. Actually, 3 of those signees were EEs this year, so they would count back against the 2011 signee total. That would leave 6 signee spots open for 2012.
Confusing, I know.
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You can’t sign 6 EEs anymore.
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That’s not what I’m saying. I’m saying that we “could” have signed 6 more on Wednesday and still had 2012 “signee” spots for 3 EEs next year.
However, signing 6 more would have put us at 88 potential scholarship players in August, which could be considered “oversigning” (again, this is all before the Friday stealing incident). Fine. But if we would have just signed 3 more…we would have had 85 potentials for August. Instead, we opted to go for 82 potentials and give those 3 spots to walk-ons who are still to be determined (when 4 other walk-ons are already getting their scholarship from last year renewed).
If we don’t want to “oversign” and account for attrition, that’s one thing. But not using up what you have and deciding that at least 7 walk-ons will be on scholarship this year is just plain stupid.
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+1.
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Verywellsaid.
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+1. You hit the nail on the head.
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Before these kids were kicked off the team, many of us were wondering why we left 3 other scholarships this fall unaccounted for. We chose not to fill those spots on Wednesday. On top of that, we were wondering why 4 former walk-ons who got scholarships last year are getting them again this year.
These issues have absolutely nothing to do with the 3 kids who got the boot Friday. We can argue all day long about whether he should sign a few extra to account for the normal attrition but what about accounting for the spots you already know you have? Richt isn’t even doing that.
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Good post
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I don’t think you can assume that there will be bad apples. At least not to the point that you can confidently over recruit. Besides not knowing whether there will be a dismissal, how can you know what positions to over offer? I suppose that you can make an argument that positions which require God-given athleticism more than team work, such as your DBs and to a lesser extent RBs, are more likely to be problems, but we have issues all around the field, so I don’t really buy that.
I am not a big fan of zero tolerance, either, because it also just tends to be zero thinking on the part of administrators. There are just too many legitimate redemption stories to assume everyone who gets in trouble is a thug.
All that said, these guys had to go. Why? Because they did what they did to a team mate. That is the kind of conduct that really does cause dissension, creates conflicts, and is just overall bad for morale. You can’t expect that any amount of internal discipline is going to solve that. CMR did this exactly right, including trying to get them placed somewhere that their lives can go on and they can learn from it.
Finally, this would not be the year to over offer anyway. Save extra spaces for next year when the talent level looks to be a little higher. Get your full 25 next year without worrying about being over the total limit.
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Complete and well-put, Chuck.
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Mark Richt’s Recruiting.
With acknowledgement to E. Barrett Browning:
How do I recruit thee? Let me count the ways
1 I recruit thee to the depth and breadth and height of NCAA rules
my soul can reach when signing out of sight
for the End of Times, 2012 and ideal transcript Trace
2 I recruit thee to the level of every class’s playing position’s
most quiet need, by son and by star’s light
3 I recruit thee freely, as D-1 men strive for Right and Might
4 I recruit thee purely, as you turn toward other’s praise
5 I recruit thee with a passion put to O and D use
In my old SEC griefs and with my coaches’s faith
6 I recruit thee with a love I seemed to lose
with my game losses Feints
7 I recruit thee with the breadth, Smiles, Tears of all our fans.
And if God and the alumni choose, I shall but recruit you better
after SEC wins and some of their deaths. .
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When Richt was first hired, I was worried about 3 things:
1. The guy who can’t get an offensive point to save his life in the national title game is going to be our head coach?
2. I hope we don’t have to suffer through years of having a head coach that’s only just too good to fire.
3. I hope we don’t eventually become Free Shoes North Campus.
Item 1 was a bit short-sighted. Item 2 still worries me, but Dooley Jr and Muschamp have shown me it could be far far worse. Item 3 is a pretty hard ship to right from a guy whose coaching career comes mainly from FSU and playing career comes from the U. I don’t think thUGA is inevitable, but I think it’s highly possible given Richt’s coaching and playing pedigree.
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CMR signed at an exclusive private college in Coral Gables, FL (one of the most exclusive towns on the East Coast). It was not “The U” that we know it until Schnellenberger had been there a few seasons and turned the place on its ear.
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Yeah, Richt came in around the time the head coach considered it “fun” getting thrown into a lake because you’re Jewish. Much higher standards there…
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So you’re not worried about CMR dressing the team in fatigues and being penalized a dozen times for unsportsmanlike conduct, it’s the 1970’s country club anit-semitism you’re worried he’ll bring to Athens?
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I’m not worried about Richt bringing anything to Athens. I’m more worried that he’s never been in a program that has dealt effectively with off-the-field player issues.
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I hate to bring the subject of race into this discussion,but our team lacks diversity. The type of individual this program seems more inclined to recruit just so happeneds to be more prone to off-field problems.Every program has its share of bad apples,its going to happend,but we seem to feed off the this type of player at the expense of the many STUDENT ATHLETES in or around this state. The type of players that could come into a program and grow without the fear of academic issues, entitled egos,etc…Why do we neglect this type of athlete? I’m not in the minority in my thinking am I?
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I hope you are.
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I likened my thought process to Bill Belichicks,he’s also in the minority!
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It seems more like you likened your thought process to … ah, well, never mind.
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Are you serious?
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I don’t think we ought to second guess these coaches. They see things in practice that we aren’t privy to. If they want to offer a walk on a scholarship, I’ll trust that they feel that walk on is an asset to the team, and is on the bus. I will take Richt’s integrity and Grantham’s chutzpah over anyone else. And race is not an issue, we are all red and black!
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Why is this always an “either/or” discussion?
You can have a really successful program without the occasional Philon or Justin Hunter story. Texas has played in two national championships recently and won one, and I don’t recall anyone shredding Mack for roster management.
If a good kid just can’t compete at the SEC level, then he does need to go play somewhere else. It doesn’t make him a bad kid, and it doesn’t make Richt an ogre for encouraging him to move down a rung. I’d love for every kid offered a scholarship by a Georgia coach, in every sport, to have what it takes on the field and off to make it four years. But it’s absurd to think that’s ever going to be a reality for any football program at any school. Some kids can’t make it in the classroom. Some can’t handle SEC competition. It happens.
Georgia should be an elite program with elite standards. While I think reform for the athletes is necessary, I hate the way the oversigning debate has dumbed down expectations – as if an ethical program and championships are suddenly incompatible.
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Agree with you big point about either/or oversimplification of this issue. I was trying to make a similar point to one of our fans that reacted to critical discussion of Georgia’s roster management with “Go be a Bama fan!”
More effective roster management and good ethics are not mutually exclusive. In the case of Alabama they certainly don’t coexist, but that doesn’t mean the two are fundamentally incompatible. Georgia can do better and be better, though we might need to innovate and spend more money on recruiting first.
You’re also right about Texas. The Longhorns do not indulge in oversigning.
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But Barking Carnival did do a post-season attrition count this year, following the roster space cleared, which happened to make room for the incoming class.
I am not bagging on Texas. I am ragging on the slippery definitions in this debate that tries to turn everything into a black and white morality play.
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Dante, you seem blind to the ten years plus that CMR has been here and what he has accomplished…slow to make an analytical summary aren’t you. And to oour “diversity” champion, you’re still at the 1936 olympics aren'[t you. We (the royal we) offer high school players who are “Probables” the chance to be preferred walk-ons with the carrot of “if you prove yourself and the opportunity comes available we’ll give you a scholarship”. These are not inferiors, just caught up in the number game. They are the players who do bleed Red and Black..the kind we profess to want at Georgia. The coaches know a damn sight more than you do about roster management and they do it for a living. Try to be a patient, good Georgia fan…and wanting a good team filled with honest, hardworking players is not, Mayor, being a candidate for Kentucky fandom!
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You misconstrue my meaning 55. I am not against “a good team filled with honest, hardworking players.” I just want CMR to sign more of ’em. And enough of the moral high ground BS. If it’s not against the rules and all of our main rivals are doing it openly, it ain’t “cheating.” I actually have come to the realization lately that Saban is doing things right. He gives kids an opportunity to play for a program that wins SEC Championships and BCS National Championships. If they don’t pan out he hustles them out the door to another school where they CAN play after having gotten top flight coaching at Bama and getting to tell friends, family and future generations that they were a part of a team that won an SEC or MNC. They then get to play (maybe even start) later at a school in a lessor conference or in a lower division where they likely would have been anyway if Saban hadn’t signed them in the first place. Show me where that is “treating players like shit.” Competition makes everybody better. That sure looks superior to me to telling kids that they have a scholarship no matter if they produce or not. Instilling that type of attitude is what leads to 6-7 seasons.
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This is NOT complex and it has NOTHING to do with the dismissals. We undersign every year. We awarded 5 to 6 walk-ons lasy year. We can not compete with Alabama and LSU with a lack of depth. The class we signed was super, just TOO small.
FIX IT!!!
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This. Why can’t there just be some middle ground? Why can’t we just sign up to or just right under the limit during most years? I understand the saving spots for EE’s this year but this is becoming a trend with Richt. We seldom if ever sign a full class. Everybody was talking about the lack of depth hurting us against LSU and MSU so did that get fixed with this recruiting class? Maybe in some areas yes but overall no.
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Were you around for last year’s signing. I remember that we had problems fitting them all in and worried about any last minute signees. We invited a few to walk on instead. They did and later were rewarded with playing time or a scholly that opened up. Let’s leave the figuring to the coaches we hired to do just that and quit harping on imperfection. They are aware of needs three levels away from where we are arguing now.
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I used to worry about the numbers until I checked out what Pete Carroll and the Laner do with the numbers @ USC…
The scholarship reduction has yet to hit USC because they never had more than 75 on scholarship in a year.
You dont need 85 players to field a good team. USC will be a national title favorite this year with no where close to 85 players…and so will UGA.
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You know I agree with you to some extent except when it comes to Georgia. Yeah USC and other teams play successfully with less than a full class but I doubt of those 75 players 5-7 are walk-ons and 3-5 are a walking medical ward.
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First of all, we don’t play in the Pac-10/12. It’s nowhere near as difficult as the SEC. Much easier to get away with not as much depth.
Second, as good as our talent is, it isn’t USC level. Almost every one of their guys is a 4-star recruit and they get more 5-stars than we do.
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I think that if you go back and look at the numbers USC hasnt recruited that much better than UGA since 2006.
I am not saying that we shouldnt worry about the numbers, but just an example of a program that doesnt worry about 85 scholarships and still gets the big time wins.
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I did that before I responded to you.
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And I stand by my first post.
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So what are the numbers…because when I look at it, we are on top a couple of years, they are on top a couple of years and they sure get their fair share of 3 star players. Doesnt seem like their 75 players or whatever is that much more talented than our group. at least when I look at it.
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USC had huge results. USC had big probation.
USC’s roster numbers plummet, causing people to accuse Carroll of lazy recruiting. USC has to have 5 interceptions to beat Boston College in a pre-Christmas Bowl game.
There’s a reason the NCAA hit USC with major scholarship limits. It’s a handicap. If we’re voluntarily leaving as many spots open on the roster as Ohio State lost involuntarily as a result of being the poster child for compliance, then that’s bad management. The heart may be in the right place, but as many have noted, the heart and the numbers can both be in the right place simultaneously. They are not mutually exclusive propositions.
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THAT is an excellent point that never occurred to me. We ourselves are, by limiting ourselves to signing less than a full class every year, essentially self-imposing PUNISHMENT on our own program as if UGA had violated NCAA Rules. We are doing to ourselves what the NCAA would do to us if we were guilty of serious ethical breaches without ever even reaping the rewards of the ethical breaches. We are “doing the time” without “doing the crime.” How stupid is that? How stupid are all of us to put up with that?
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