I appreciate the thoughtful responses Sunday’s post about Charlottesville generated, even from those of you who disagreed with me. That being said, I have to tell you that none of you came close to touching the sheer, concise brilliance of a comment my post spawned at the HOTD message board.
In fact, I’m going on record to say that in more than ten years of blogging, it’s the greatest comment about a GTP post I’ve ever read.
Still has his head up CMR’s ass so liberal was a given
If you’re a Georgia fan, in twelve words, that has it all, don’t it?
And some of you thought my post was political.
Get The Picture 
This is the only response to that guy.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=C_Kh7nLplWo
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For fucks sake, we must be trying to hit 40 million hits here before tomorrow. Man I love it here, but it seems like a couple of topics lately we might not have had before. Except when you were on vaca.
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Who would have thought that a stated frustration with a president failing to condemn neo-Nazis and the KKK by name in combination with an appreciation of a coach who spoke and acted like a true Christian would make one “liberal?”
Makes one wonder what a “conservative” is in this idiots mind.
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Got that right! If I cared what the guy actually thought, I would ask him to define a conservative…and a liberal for that matter. People have little clue about what each side really stands for. THIS is what’s wrong with American! Well that along with too many people thinking professional wrestling is real.
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I can help you. His definition of a liberal would be “something, something, delicious tears, something, something, snowflake.”
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You forgot triggered, too.
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There is a reason I don’t follow that blog.
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I’d actually never even heard of it.
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It isn’t really a blog; more like a message board. Lot of crazies there, but occasionally there are some good Dawg tidbits, and lots of partially clad hottie pics. The politics are insane, though.
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The culpability of the mayor is what gets lost in all this partisanship-filled rancor. Charolettesville, three weeks prior, had the KKK show up to protest without loss of life or tear gas in the streets. Proper policing kept a lid on would-be bad actors. For the life of me why would you allow people to fight it out in the streets leading to the incident which claimed a woman’s life??? The mayor has shown himself to be unfit for the job.
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that’s true as far as the street violence was prior to this incident…but this sociapath in his HItler youth outfit would have never been in Charlottsville if a bunch of KKK and fellow traveler groups hadn’t called for a rally.
If your goal is to protect Confederate monuments, there are reasonable ways to petition your government to move them to a different location. A Klan rally is not a reasonable way to accomplish anything.
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When did the default position for protecting confederate monuments become moving them. Like I first thought when the Senator brought it up the other day… think we are going to need a bigger museum. No telling what else yall are going to determine needs to be removed. As a civil libertarian doesn’t that scare the shit out of you?
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Gonna take a big museum to get Stone Mountain contained.
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Nah, here’s how you do it. Dial to the :52 sec mark.
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I’m certainly no Confederate defender, but for consistency’s sake, shouldn’t UVA students be demanding that all references to Thomas Jefferson be scrubbed from the campus? After all, he was a notorious slave owner and accused slave rapist. Not intending this to be snarky, and I certainly wouldn’t support it, but this seems like a logical progression and legitimate concern.
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Jefferson fought for the confederacy?
I think that illustrates where the line is. I think it’s also helpful if you’re famous for other things than your worst sins. Your place in history is a balance. No one’s perfect and few are impressed with the timeliness of the trains during Hitler’s reign. Stalin gets little good press although he was invaluable in helping us beat the Germans.
There’s history and then there’s reverence. They are different.
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I guess W&L is toast. We’re sure lucky to have someone like you let us know where the line is.
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You’re welcome. I’m assuming that you have no suggestions yourself thus you rely on the judgment of others. Of course if you do have a line that you’d like to express, please feel free to express it and I’ll be happy to post some nonsense about how you’re being presumptuous.
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Ok, poorly constructed first sentence. I just wanted to be sure to qualify that I’m not saying ‘ you want to take down our Confederate monuments, then dammit you better go after the legacy of all slave owners!’, because I’ve heard this argument from the Rebel Pride guys I know. And I know the difference. As I stated, in no way would I be in favor of this, but do you not think it could become an issue from some student groups who consider it offensive to honor former slave owners?
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I’m quite certain that you could find some leftist who would want to take down Ike’s White House photo because of Dresden or a wingnut who would want to take down JFK’s photo because he found out he was a democrat. What can you do?
These issues don’t get sorted out on the merits. It gets sorted out by people for better or for worse.
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“I think that illustrates where the line is.”
For now.
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Dawg,
Portions of the UVA community are happy to oblige your need for logical consistency:
“For many of us, the inclusion of Jefferson quotations in these e-mails undermines the message of unity, equality and civility that you are attempting to convey.”
Link to that article by the UVA student paper:
http://www.cavalierdaily.com/article/2016/11/professors-ask-sullivan-to-stop-quoting-jefferson
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Do a Google search and you’ll find there’s been an intense amount of debate on this subject at UVa of late.
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https://charlierose.com/videos/30882
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Well I meant to post a clip from this interview higher in the thread, but the topic of removing Jefferson statues is happening. Rev. Sharpton is on the mother.
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My original point being, the police both local and state, dropped the ball. But when you have CNN putting up a story where the ACLU’s response mirror’s that of the white supremacists’, which is that the police allowed this to happen, it almost makes think the ball dropping was intentional.
http://www.cnn.com/2017/08/14/us/police-response-charlottesville-trnd/index.html
Go Dawgs!
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Jeez. Just Jeez.
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Good folks over there, a little nuts for sure…but good folks none the less…everything from POT to music to BBQ…I stay out of the political discussions, everywhere, makes life easier IMHO….
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Not really; it’s a backwards, racist cesspool of bitter old white men.
You should see what JC Dawg 83 posts there away from “polite society” here.
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Ah, bitter old white men, the source of all problems in the universe. Thanks for uplifting the discussion. I’m sure that you decry the use of stereotypes for all other groups, right?
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This. I am sick of this. White male virtue signalers seeing how many times in a day they can cram some sort of slam about “white men”, “old white men”, or “white people”. When it comes to any other race, these same people have a solid grasp of the fact that nobody has any say in what race they are (although trans race is sure to something we are expected to take seriously soon enough). But when it comes to white people they deem to be. It as compassionate or progressive as them they start in with this. Whether I do or don’t agree with a person, I’m willing to listen to their perspective until they lapse into displays like this that are meant to let everyone know how virtuous they are.
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Correct me if I’m wrong, but the web host of that site has threatened to shut it down before due to the content of posts there, yes?
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LOL, I see your take yourself too serious.m
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Why? Because I find this particular brand of intellectual dishonesty obnoxious in its own special way?
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Yeah, as a middle-aged, reasonably affluent white man, I don’t know how I put one foot in front of the other nowadays.
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Yeah I’m going to punch myself for being born white. Then I’m going to drive to my parents’ house and kick both their asses for producing a white man.
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Mike, look. Privilege is a thing, man. If you’re white, affluent, “raised right” with all the social capital that represents, you’re going through life like a video game with all the levels set on “easy.” Stop being defensive. There’s a place for everybody at the table and plenty for everybody if we can all at least try to recognize where everybody else is coming from.
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I don’t disagree with your final point and we don’t know each other so I am going to take it at face value that you truly mean what you are saying. My issue is that many who espouse that view and do so loudly so that everyone knows what a virtuous person they are, are anything but that. I don’t buy the open armed, warm hearted, caring image that the social justice left likes to drape themselves in because that isn’t hat I see from them. I see envy, resentment, anger, and hatred. And I have a good enough understanding of history that I know from whence this movement came and it is ugly. The entire social justice or “antifa” movement also known as progressivism is rooted in and predicated upon postmodern philosophy which is another name for cultural Marxism. This is all propped up by a desire to assault and destroy everything that came out of he Enlightenment. Science (infinite genders anyone?), Individualism, clarity of thought just to name a few. I said yesterday that hatred is doing so well because it is being represented as love. Love has no place in this philosophy. At best, all that comes out of this philosophy is nihilism. That’s the best case scenario. The concept of openly talking about “white people” as the enemy is part and parcel with all of this. I take people as individuals. I help others when I can. But I totally reject progressivism. A read through mid twentieth century French post modernism backs up everything I’m saying. It’s the American leftist playbook and equality and love ain’t where it leads.
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Well wherever the “American rightist playbook” is leading doesn’t appeal to me.
Peace.
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Mark Richt has lost control of the Nazis?
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Sadly, these days if you harbor moderate viewpoints, you’ll still be cast as one extreme or the other depending on which side you’re talking to. As a Libertarian who is socially liberal and fiscally conservative, my liberal/Democrat friends view me as a GOP right winger, while my conservative friends view me as a liberal who almost assuredly voted for Hillary in the last election.
This is a problem, as people simply can’t admit that others they disagree with on certain issues simply are moderate with balanced viewpoints. Instead, they just MUST be one extreme or the other regardles. Not only does this show a lack of self-awareness, it creates the hostilities we see today in which you must be on side or another for this ongoing battle of political supremacy.
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Preach it Brother
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I consistently talk about the fact that the last time we had a government that actually accomplished anything was when we were still governing from the middle. The democrats were left of center and the republicans were right of center but neither party inhabited the fringes on either side. Forcing everyone to the extremes makes it easier to get elected but it makes it impossible to effectively govern. Neither the liberal fringe nor the conservative fringe can actually govern. Our experience in recent years is proof. Yet both my liberal friends and my conservative friends think I’m the idiot. Apparently, the point of government is simply to occupy the titular seat of power. Any thought of governance or responding to needs of he American people seems completely lost. But hey, we’re the winners and you’re the losers and don’t you ever forget it!
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“a government that actually accomplished anything”
I don’t know the “why” but I would say that our government accomplishes so many things so well that partisans have less to bitch about so they instead amp the rhetoric up to eleven and respond to all issues with apoplectic rage and spittle drenched shrieks.
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I get what you’re saying. On a local level you have no choice but to pave roads, make sure schools are up and running and do other things like keep the water and electricity turned on or you don’t get elected. A lot gets done. I’m talking nationally where we have ignored infrastructure for decades despite it being one of the few areas both parties agree on, ignored immigration reform despite it being an issue the vast majority of Americans want to see addressed, stolen funds from Social Security for decades to pay for things we cannot afford despite it being the only retirement money millions of Americans have. The list goes on. None of these issues are new. There are lots of ideas both good and bad and lots of research, committees and task forces but no action. Only partisanship. The problem is partisanship isn’t governance. It’s belligerence.
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Georgia’s own Newt Gingrich bears a lot of the blame for modern partisanship. When he took over as Speaker of the house, he ordered Republican congressmen to stop socializing with Democrats and sent them home more often to raise money. Before Gingrich, when Tip O’Niell was Speaker Republicans had a voice. Gingrich killed the Democratic Study Group so that members of congress in both parties no longer knew what was in the bills they were voting on. Earmarks doubled once he was in power. Gingrich didn’t create partisanship, but he sure as hell accelerated it.
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Spot on, paul. There is no room for the middle any longer, in either party. And that “all in” philosophy by requiring total adherence to the party leaders means the citizens, who tend to be more moderate, with variance on issues in both directions, have no voice. Extremism is the order of the day, and there is no in between in Washington. You can send an intelligent representative to Washington but he/she is changed into a puppet by the national party leaders by the time they are sworn in.
I have said for over a decade, the two party system is becoming the ruin of this country, we need a strong 3rd party to move us to the middle by requiring discussion and compromise. That hasn’t existed in decades and it has driven both parties to the far left and right on most all issues. We would not have had Trump as President if it wasn’t for the prior two terms. None of us alive have seen the country so divided as we have the past 10 years, the 60s were tame compared to where we are now. And now the hate speech from both extremes are driving us further apart with no reasonable solution in sight. I would say the 15% are driving the other 85% right toward the cliff.
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While I agree with much of what you said, it’s revealing that you so unequivocally state that the issue started 10 years ago. What about the president before that got elected on just a middle platform of “compassionate conservatism” and then once elected (through forced both intended and unforseen) led a neo-con agenda that embroiled us in war, conflict, recession, and made those that filled him more extreme?
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Well, to be fair, there has always been some degree of division, always. I selected that specific time to not just accuse the prior administration’s eight years as when things really split (although I feel that was when it really fractured, probably beyond repair.) I realize others may not feel that way but that is my opinion, and what really opened the door to a stronger response from the right. Milk toast, mainstream type responses from candidates like McCain and Romney just wasn’t going to win out.
I don’t say that to engage anyone in debate as we all have our perspectives, just to explain why I picked that particular point. You can go back to hundreds of points in time in US history and say they all contributed to some degree. I think the 2006 Pelosi house was the straw that broke the camel’s back, but that is one opinion.
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And I picked Bush because I was just coming of age politically and I wanted to really see his campaign promises materialize. A humble foreign policy, and social safety net with the right incentives, free but accountable markets… watching his presidency unfold was a major betrayal. And I didn’t turn to the left, I just became jaded by the lies and increasingly shrieking nonsense spewed by both sides.
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I am jaded by both, fwiw, just happens the conservatives are closer to my two hot buttons, strong national defense/security and being more fiscally conservative. I can work with any other hot button problems for compromise, both ways, except for those two issues. I fear we have lost both now but I will fight on for my kids and grandchild.
43’s foreign policy was dictated 8 months after taking office by 9/11. We will never know, but I feel it would have been similar to his father’s. I had two major issues with his presidency, he missed a slam dunk opportunity to get control of our southern border and, for some stupid reason, either a Texas thing or a family issue, he did not and things spiraled out of control; the other was not forcing the issue of putting federal troops in New Orleans sooner after Katrina. He let the control freak governor and the idiot mayor hold him back and let a horrible situation get maximized. There were many other items where I didn’t agree but those were the two major flaws for me.
I would like for both parties to be dissolved, which won’t happen, and remove the R or D designation beside a candidate’s name. People in a district, or state, should at least know the person’s name even if they don’t know what they stand for. Just sick of parties, mob rule, and allegiance to a national group. Promise you an informed electorate would never have let us get this far in the ditch, Americans are mostly good people when talking one on one and not running with the herd.
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Well said, Mac.
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“neo-cons” like Harry Reid, Chuck Schumer and Hillary Clinton?
You can be angry about the results in Iraq, but you can’t deny that regime change and aggressive engagement was the stated and pursued policy of both parties and all leaders for a dozen years leading up to that war.
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Fair enough points, both yours and macallanlover.
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You have to get away from propaganda disguised as news. You have to get away from objective facts being challenged for bias or hidden conspiracies. False flags and Jade Helm and all the bat shit crazy shit. There are actual truths and its important that people who vote to know them.
We have to abandon ideology of all stripes. Neither the government nor the free market are completely perfect or evil. Both are necessary evils that the people, collectively, must use their votes in order to limit the abuses inherent in both.
Also, we need to be open to politicians who tell us the truth, not who tell us what we want to hear.
The truth is that at bottom we have one party that wants to use the wealth of the country to invest in people who are without wealth. We have another party that thinks using the government to redistribute wealth is either inefficient, ineffective or just plain wrong.
However, these are rarely the issues that are discussed. If you are voting on any other basis you are being used by one side or the other. Those two issues are really the whole thing so just pick a side.
And sorry libertarians and greens, you aren’t getting any traction in this country. Its not happening ever. You should have just voted for the turd sandwich. It was important.
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Do we still have any wealth in this country? Both parties seem to have completely bankrupted us. At least the current president understands the financial situation.
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A shit ton: The country is worth approximately 270 trillion dollars. Debt is about 145 trillion.
The country would be far from qualifying for any type of bankruptcy. All that talk is part of the game described by Grover Norquist who said the goal is to make the Government small enough to drag it into the bathroom and drown it in the tub.
You can’t win elections by taking away Medicare or Social Security or Medicaid, but you can give the people the impression that you are too broke to pay for it. You can pass tax cut after tax cut for the rich so that the problem gets worse. You can tell people “you can’t raise taxes, because jobs” when there isn’t the slightest connection between the two. Businesses don’t hire people as a gift or out of a display of abundance. They hire people because of demand. If you want demand, people have to have money in their pockets to spend.
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Damn, you know it all. I’d love to see how you calculated these numbers. I’ve been around here long enough that I should know better than to engage you. Good luck on your mission.
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You’re right. Facts are for losers.
I’m assuming if you’re posting that you have access to the google. It’s as available to you as it is to me.
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No, I believe in facts. I just wanted to see the source where you pulled these numbers from. Believe it or not there is a lot of misinformation info on Google.
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Try the federal reserve, the OMB, or the CBO. Each have websites with this info. What I posted came from the Federal Reserve’s.
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I would still like to see a link where you pulled those numbers. I think you must have pulled it from this document:
Click to access z1.pdf
I don’t see anything close to the numbers you cite. It is pretty difficult to calculate the net worth of the US so I am curious on how you came up with that figure. I know you wouldn’t just make up facts for your argument…
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It may be hard, but it’s not impossible. Give it a shot. Add the assets up and subtract the liabilities. If you come up with materially different numbers, let me know.
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It all adds up to you being full of shit.
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That’s not a number.
Let’s start here: https://youtu.be/YTHL0y6xvLE
Tomorrow, we’ll learn something called math.
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All I want is the government out of my life and do the things specifically enumerated in the Constitution. There are so many Cabinet level departments that could be disbanded and sent back to the states to create environments for real competition and innovation.
Oh, well, that genie is out of the bottle.
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FAA at the state level?
NTSB at the state level?
No Homeland Security?
No FBI?
No DEA?
No ATF?
No Border Patrol?
No federal customs agents?
You can say that you want the city of Atlanta to keep the planes from flying into each other. Surely you trust that the mayor of Atlanta wouldn’t take Columbian drug money to allow the free flow of drugs into Hartsfield and certainly they would let undocumented workers fly in unchecked if they got a cut. And yes the city of Atlanta would be able to determine if terrorists or innocent students were flying in from Saudi Arabia. And no doubt the state of alabama and Mississippi would spend state dollars to ensure quality education and health care for all types of citizens of their states.
This is one of those easy fix it bs solutions that is not only unworkable, it isn’t desirable. You don’t need a new government, you need a time machine.
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As usual, you take a comment to the extreme, Derek. All of those functions you mention have ties to enumerated powers in the Constitution (maybe with the exception of DEA, if you believe in drug legalization). FAA and NTSB are related to the regulation of interstate commerce. Homeland Security, FBI, ATF, Border Patrol and ICE are all covered under the requirement to defend and protect the borders or to enforce federal laws.
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What functions are outside the constitution? Why hasn’t the Supreme Court struck them down?
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I would make the case that the Department of Energy is a perfect example of a federal bureaucracy that wasn’t constitutional or necessary. Are there some functions there that are appropriate (the Nuclear Regulatory Commission for one – but that could have been placed under some other Cabinet level department)?
Why hasn’t the Supreme Court struck them down? Because the federal judiciary has zero interest in reducing the size and scope of federal engagement.
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11.5 billion of their 28 billion budget is in nuclear security. Even if you got rid of the other 16.5 billion considering that the budget is 4 trillion, you aren’t doing a whole lot.
I am curious though what extra-constitutional functions does the Department of Energy perform that should be struck down by a legitimate Supreme Court?
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interesting perspective. “cutting this relatively small budget item is inconsequential in the scheme of things, so no need to cut it” while at the same time, we often hear from many people, “you can’t cut this gigantic budget item because it’s too big and impacts too many people”
What pray tell is a budget item that fits the goldielocks “just right” size?
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I’m sorry. I thought the idea was meant as a solution to something. If the idea was to do it knowing it solves absolutely nothing, go ahead. Who am I to argue with useless gestures?
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good to know my description of you was accurate. I’ll add government spending and finance to the list of topics in which I should entirely ignore you.
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I was using the DOE as an example. There are plenty of opportunities to reduce the size and scope of the federal government across all departments. At DOE specifically, all of the loan guarantee programs that are crony capitalism at its worst are extra-constitutional in my humble opinion.
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Of course, no one wants to talk about the ticking economic time bombs … first, unfunded liabilities in entitlement programs (Social Security and Medicare, in particular) and, second, the interest on the national debt.
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I’ll talk about it. We’re going to have to start paying for military excursions in the desert, tax cuts for rich people or we’re gonna go broke.
We had a surplus in 2000. Then we had two wars that were not paid for. Two tax cuts for rich folks that were not paid for. A Medicare drug benefit that was not paid for. Then we had an unregulated market that collapsed. All of a sudden we go from peace and prosperity to fucking broke. Then in 2009 we being 8 years of steady but not necessarily dynamic growth and reductions in the annual budget deficit and slightly half of the people said “hey let’s gets a business failure and reality tv star in there! Yeah that’ll do it.”
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we had a 1 year current account surplus. The actual debt was still astronomical. the .com bust took care of any chance of sustained surpluses
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Modest surpluses or modest yearly deficits are much better than where we were by 2008. Given your “but 16 billion is a big deal” interjection above, you’d think you wouldn’t be so willing to go from picking nits to willful blindness, but that’s what you did inside of two hours.
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We could easily end the Departments of Energy, HUD, Commerce, Interior, and Education. We could easily end corporate welfare, foreign aid, and foreign wars. Let young workers opt out of entitlement programs. Those would be big dollars. But, the tax and spenders would certainly caterwaul about how we can’t possibly get along without the Federal Bureaucracy of Pencil Sharpening.
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What pray tell do you do with sick, broke 75 year old who opted out when he was 24?
Sure we could stop giving money to Egypt and Israel and still have affordable gas for our vehicles. No doubt. It’s just the morons at State, the defense department and the intelligence agencies that are uniformly dumb and you’re a GD genius.
You realize that the simplest answers come from the simplest people who happen to be simpletons right?
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We could let his investments and insurance support him. Or his family. Or private charity. Or we could just add him to the endless list of people and things that are too big, small, old, young, etc, to fail.
Good point on oil. If we stopped giving cash to those countries, why they would just stop selling their oil on the open market just to spite us. I guess we can keep economics on the long list of things you don’t know shit about.
You know, ignorant people are a dime a dozen. But what I appreciate about you is your arrogant and spiteful stupidity. It’s kind of rare for individuals so devoid of intelligence to insult their superiors so consistently and vociferously. Bless your heart.
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Right. We’re paying so they will sell us oil. Sure.
The intelligence, diplomatic, and military branches of our nation think middle eastern political stability is the key to low energy prices. Fucking dumbasses.
Your unique dumbassery is special because it is entirely impervious to facts, logic or reason. Quite a feat.
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Good point. Because if there’s one adjective that can describe the Middle East over the last few decades, it’s stability. Those boys in Washington are doing a bang up job with their policy of regime change for the purpose of stability. Nothing like fighting against al-Qaeda in Iraq and Afghanistan, but for al-Qaeda in Syria to prove how nuanced one’s thinking is. Of course, with geopolitical experts like John McCain and Barbara Boxer dictating our foreign policy, what could go wrong?
And as usual, your masters in Washington appreciate your inability and unwillingness to think for yourself. Just trust that, no matter how stupid their policies seem, politicians are the “experts” that you can trust.
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I’d rather take the word of a guy named bonerfart.
Run for office. Don’t let your genius go wasted.
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Add to that the fact that we all are working from completely different fact sets enabled by reality bubbles that we create for ourselves.
My sweet mother in law is underwater with Fox News and her Primitive Baptist social circles. Her daughter (my wife) is an extremely successful CFO in the medical provider field. And the two of them are extremely close. And they can’t talk health care policy because my wife’s views don’t conform to the Obamacare Orthodoxy she’s been immersed in.
We just don’t listen anymore.
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Maybe I’m misreading your comment but, how did you mother in law get immersed in Obama Orthodoxy by watching FoxNews?
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Anti-Obamacare Orthodoxy.
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Got it. Had me kind of confused there.
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Thanks for clarification. Had me going “Huh”
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Spot on, 3rd. “Moderate” is essentially an unknown position these days. And sadly, compromise is a dirty word, though it’s basically the cornerstone of our government.
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I consider myself a moderate on most issues, left on some others, and slightly right on some. Most of my left side friends, consider me “not really with them”, and the buddies that are Trump supporters, consider me “not at all with them”. Kinda strange to be an enemy of both on some issues.
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Agree with you. Nobody thinks anyone can be a moderate so tired of the extremes on both sides saying theirs are the only answers. Compromise is not a dirty word and people who believe different than you are not necessarily evil.
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We all know Mark Richt was as spy
An under cover agent for the FBI
Sent down here to infiltrate the KuKluxKlan
Why he’s even gone as far as tearing UGA stickers of of bumpers of cars,
And he didn’t even have an IPF, you can call home and ask his wife.
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That made me laugh!
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Great!
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Most over there like you and know the truth (Richt). That fellow is just a self-promoting DA, always has been….a blowhard, it is always about him….helps to get him through the day.
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I stayed out of that thread except for a couple of snarky snippets. What I cannot wrap my head around, I never have been able to and never will, is why someone can be so hate filled that they feel the need to kill because someone has a different belief than their own. I will never understand why someone feels the need to kill to subjugate or prove an ideological or genetic superiority over another human being. Countless lives have been lost throughout human history because of it. I don’t have words for it, no one does. But the question is: What if it was your wife, daughter, son, brother, lover, or a beloved friend who died needlessly on a sidewalk in Charlotte? What is in us that make us hate so much that they would kill indiscriminately an innocent person?
It doesn’t matter who the president is.
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Agree….in the grand scheme of things, it is not that important to me. Especially to go out and protest/counter or observe. My family feels the same…
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I have words for it. Human nature. Some few people are killers. They will kill you for your wallet, or your shoes, or because you flirted with their girlfriend, or because you are a different religion or political ideology.
And beyond that, many more people share the killing mindset, as long as others do the dirty work. That’s why people will support bombing Syria, or invading North Korea, or regime change in Iraq and Libya. That’s why a group of socialists who want to use government force to benefit whites at the expense of minorities will violently clash with a different group of socialists who want to use government force to benefit minorities at the expense of whites.
It has always existed and it will always exist. Just accept it.
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“In fact, I’m going on record to say that in more than ten years of blogging, it’s the greatest comment about a GTP post I’ve ever read.”
Thomas Brown says he’ll handle this, and it’s going to be a big deal.
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You have a point. I may have jinxed myself.
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I think everybody just has to get over their addiction to Info-tainment. It’s much healthier for all to have those same endorphins released by BS’ing about Georgia football or Greg McGarity than the news of today. But I would imagine it’s all part of the same drug and brain receptor addiction. The news just needs to be 10-15 minutes long with the human version of Siri telling you what happened.
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Food companies know that sugar leaves customers coming back for more. And knowing that helps consumers make healthier choices. But a lot of people get addicted to sugar, and it’s hard to break those habits.
Same deal with information. Sports blogs erupted in kind of the same way local breweries and bbq joints did – to serve customers who’d had it with fast food.
I am not sure what local politics looks like anymore, but that’s the ultimate solution. It is a lot easier to process these national arguments when you see the issues playing out in your neighborhood or downtown – and you have taken the time to hear your neighbor’s point of view.
But yeah, turn off the national stuff. It’s Mountain Dew, and too much of it creates Mountain Dew Mouth.
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Thinks this guy has his head up CMR’s ass also (check out Miami also):
http://www.cfbanalytics.com/predictions.php
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Meant Georgia then Miami.
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Nice, pretty much cordial discussion. I don’t think I saw the word dumbass one time or the f word.
I think I have a way to have a bipartisan government. Dems and Repubs take turns presenting a bill. It is voted on. If there is a straight party line vote then we go to a coin toss. Heads it passes tails it fails. Then the other party has a turn with their bill. After a few bills they both despise passes then even Washington lawmakers would figure out we better sit down together and work these things out for the betterment of the American people.
And make them sit in alphabetical order to learn to tolerate each other better.
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Crazy as that sounds, it actually might bring them to their senses, and has a 50/50 chance of being getting the right thing done. How could we have let this thing go so wrong? It didn’t happen over night, but in the last 50 years we lost our way…..and I don’t think we will get Genie back in the box. Lot of blame to go around but a only small chance someone can repair the damage. This country has been at its best when the biggest crises occur, it will definitely require something dramatic to make us take some medicine? And the current crowd doesn’t seem as tough, or committed as before,
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Well said Macallanlover. Politics used to be an across the aisles of congress problem mainly, now it is an across the dinner table problem too. Even members of a family are pitted against each other by which ideal they support. Something as silly as coin flips may be the only alternative to saving our nation. Aren’t these people elected to solve problems and not create them?
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Agree with the post just above this one. Good thread. For once I enjoyed reading views from more than one side. It can actually be done. But it’s like threading a needle in a hurricane in the current environment.
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You can thank “Identity Politics” for the degradation of discourse in this country and it’s only getting worse.
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YAWN
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Man. So many of you contributors here seem to have it all figured out. It must be great to have all the answers to every question. Given that there seem to be an endless numbers of political scabs to pick, I guess I can look forward to an endless stream of lectures. Oh, happy day. It’s not my blog, so I don’t make the rules, but I sort of miss the days when we all stuck to being stupid about just football here. C’est le guerre.
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The blog is popular because it appeals to a broad spectrum of people. You can easily tell which posts are going to be political. It is pretty easy to just skip those articles. I like the blog for the topics on politics, the NCAA, and general SEC info. I wish there was less UGA football…..
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so your idea in a post by the Senator about comments he didn’t care for on another blog is……..to skip reading stuff you don’t like. That’s actually kind of a good idea, but quite a number of folks on here seem to feel the need to illustrate how they are smarter and more evolved than, say….everyone.
and this is not a shot at the Senator. Someone made a stupid comment about him on HOTD, I’m not surprised if he found it annoying, or stupid, or a bit shallow, and felt justified in shooting back. Me, I try to avoid the political stuff because all it usually ends up being is “Anyone who disagrees with me is a racist/idiot/snowflake/socialist.” That isn’t a discussion, it’s just gainsaying, and it’s not very entertaining.
and on that, I’m out.
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I don’t mean to be rude. I actually like the political posts even though I disagree with what seems like a lot of the Senator’s politics. They are obviously popular judging by the comments on the two posts about this topic. If people who share a common interest can’t discuss current events and politics then something is wrong. I can easily see why people would be turned off but they are free to not read those posts and comments.
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Yup, everyone free to skip, or participate. I don’t care for them but can never resist some of the rhetoric that is meant to mislead, but stay away from the 20 comment arguments that seem to dominate. Fortunately, these political snapshots are not the norm. I can understand why you prefer them to UGA football, but that is going to continue. 🙂 But we can agree, your whipping TN and FU is very enjoyable!
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It’s the offseason, Dog. I suspect a close game with Appalachian State will curtail the political warbling somewhat. FWIW, Got Sr. predicts a 10-2 regular season with losses to UF and ND. The bet is a case of beer (Winners Choice), what should my counter be? 8-4? with losses to…..
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Plenty of reasonable people wanted Richt gone, but the people who thought he was awful and were ecstatic to see him replaced with Smart are exactly the people that voted for Trump. People who can only see the world in extremes.
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Really Rick that is what you come up with on a day everyone is trying to at least talk about how the other side feels in here? You know the presidential election was decided by a lot more people than those that were happy Mark Richt was fired. So I assume you voted for Hillary because she wanted Richt gone or did not want him gone? I forgot which side she came down on on that subject.
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Fair point. Let me amend it: those who enthusiastically voted for Trump overlap heavily with those who enthusiastically wanted Richt gone.
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LOL!!…really? Tell is it ain’t so….
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This is wrong.
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Wrong.
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I fully agree 81Dog and that is why I pick and chose what I want to read online. Have you tried that? Just read the sports threads and not the political ones or don’t go to a blog or read articles that you know will frustrate you. I have found it helps keep me sane to skip over stuff that I know I will hate it if I read it. And just for you I will say… Go Dawgs.
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I missed the whole thing and now it’s not even up anymore. Dammit, but I think Bluto was “just trying to get some good word-of-mouth going….create a buzz. ” 😉
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I missed the whole thing and now it’s not even up anymore. Dammit, but I think Bluto was “just trying to get some good word-of-mouth going….create a buzz. ” 😉
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Once Is Not Enough
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For those who think that there is actually line, I feel sorry for you. I can’t fathom how people don’t realise this is just the start. Did everyone see destruction of other monuments the day after the incident? Did it not look eerily similar to ISIS’s and the Taliban’s destruction of religious sites? And NO, I am not comparing religious sites to go confederate statues. I’m comparing the ideology. If you are against something then destroy it and wipe it from the face if the earth. It’s only going to get worse.
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This Virginia sad tradgedy will be front page much longer than this one:A man wanted in the slaying of a motel security guard set out to kill as many white people as he could, gunning down three men on the streets of downtown Fresno before he was captured and admitted to the killings, the city’s police chief said Tuesday. Tom Wait reports. If the victim was black…. Virginia would be in flames….. Sad
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Well you can tell the dog days of summer are upon us when we get 100 comments about politics on Get the Picture. Football cannot get here soon enough.
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CMR still getting pub… Gotta be the hook.
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Thank God I can sleep well tonight. Trump is back in David Duke’s good graces. https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/08/15/us/politics/trump-press-conference-charlottesville.html?referer=https://news.google.com/
There’s two sides. Neo Nazis and people who oppose them. What’s the difference really when you think about it? The axis powers killed people. The alllies killed people. Same thing.
After all “There are a lot of killers. You think our country’s so innocent?” Trump replied.
I’m proud to be an American where at least I know we suck. What happened to American exceptionalism? That was a thing wasn’t it?
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You must have taken offense to Trump calling you the alt-left.
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He made me feel un-American for wanting to beat the fuck out of nazis. I’m really reexamining things. Is it really ok to want to hit a fascist in the face with a bat? Until Saturday I thought our country was about fighting fascism, but apparently in “moral equivilancy” land waving a nazi flag should not cause a public outcry. Too bad the audiences cheered when the Blues Brothers ran the Illinois Nazis off that bridge. We’ve come so far. Instead of screaming crowds they should have shown respectful listening during that nazi screed.
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Derek I don’t believe you could beat the fuck out of anybody. You had better stick to the internet, killer.
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And you can tell that how? I think you’d be pretty good at fellatio based on your posts. They do suck after all.
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Thanks, princess.
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You’re welcome, Ms. Lovelace.
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Get a room, you two.
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Damn Senator, I’m a liberal and I never thought of you as anything but a middle of the road guy. Perspective comes with age and you should not worry about what those idiots write on their websites. This is the best place to come for Dawg news.
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I too believe the Senator writes both an exceptional and fair blog. I admire his skills and knowledge. But I never saw him as middle of the road.
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Me either, AHD. And it is his blog so it is wrong to complain about him taking one side or the other, everyone else gets their chance whether an informed position or not.
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Agreed. Best football blawg out there. But he is a bit thin-skinned like most lefties.
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Thanks for getting it, Mac. The fair thing is to let everyone express their point of view, which is what I try to do.
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Hell, man, I can’t even tell where the road is any more.
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I think you’re confusing amusement with worry. I honestly chuckled out loud when I read that.
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Just finished a book some of you may want to check out. Along the same line as the extremists in VA. Excellent insight into recruiting and the mind set of some of the mid eastern groups. Title is I Was told to come Alone, by Mekhennets. Some will like it, some will not, kinda like the comment thread on here, but it is a very interesting book.
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Like what this lady said today, voice of reason….Thank you Alveda King:
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That is a nice find Greg, but you and Ms King seem to be missing the point: you cannot equate violence coming from the right with violence from the left. That is the whole point, the object is to declare a winner from the left, and ignore any actions of violence they may be guilty of. It is why the remarks chiding both sides for their actions was so totally denounced by the usual suspects. The purpose is not to solve the problem nor promote any rational discussion leading to calmer voices. We need a beat down on all things conservative….or else.
Alt-left, alt-right is just more bullshit, violence coming from the crazies on the left last year, the year before, and earlier this year is no more correct than violence from the crazies on the right this past weekend. Time for the “we can’t get over its” to get over it and realize there is a peaceful way, but it isn’t going to be in the streets. Trump is right, both sides pushing that agenda are/will be losers, imo.
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https://mobile.twitter.com/MrEricMartin/status/896480257028390917
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You lost me at “Trump is right”.
Again, trying to rationalize the comments of a POTUS who can’t even bring himself to utter a straightforward condemnation of Nazis and their fellow travelers is confounding to me. It’s off the rails and all you’ve got as a defense is “but libruls”.
Sad.
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Sorry, this is one of those topics/issues/events where you are over-the-top, and not balanced in your view. I understand that in a way, there is a history for you (in fact, all of us) but if you think Trump supports Nazis, or the KKK you are totally nuts. In fact, if you think either of those 2 particular groups are influential in this country you are delusional. He was right to condemn hate on either extreme. There is hate on both sides of the issue, and violence on both sides is just wrong. As Ms King said, his position was correct, to interpret his broader look as running from the issue or endorsing a specific side is just 100% wrong. It was a predictable over reach by the media weirdos, just surprised you got caught up in that. But it is your right to interpret as you wish, I see from the comments above you aren’t alone. And the energy continues to be focused in the wrong direction, and the fans continue to be flamed.
The only stat I have ever found on the KKK was an FBI estimate of 55,000 KKK members ion this country of 325MM. There are probably more citizens who drink urine than that. I grew up in the South in the 50s,and 60s, and have never met, or spoken, to a single KKK member.
That is still true today. I have spoken to a few white racists, but many more of the racists I have met were black, not white. I firmly believe the vast majority of citizens are not racists at all, but they are also not willing to be forced to choose the extreme side. Fanning the flames of hate is an issue in this country, some are only happy when they are stirring the pot, and the drumbeats are getting louder….the two extremes are getting the attention these days.
If you want to see an administration that turned its back on calling out a much larger group of dangerous individuals promoting violence in this country you may want to look at the previous one who ignored not just the the radical jihadists in America, but also the Black Panthers and BLM calls for attacks on the police. Violence is wrong from either side, left/right, black/white, or muslim/Christian. Physically fighting against other beliefs is wrong regardless of the label applied.
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I don’t know if Trump supports the alt-right, but at a minimum he certainly panders to them because he thinks there’s value in it.
And, again, the rest of what you have to say is nothing more than “but libruls”. I don’t have a problem acknowledging that there are excesses on the left, but when we’ve got a POTUS attempting to normalize the behavior of Nazis and the KKK, they’re not an excuse and shame on you for suggesting otherwise.
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I doubt seriously he feels there is value in condoning hate and violence, if he does, he is a fool. Stating again, there isn’t a large number of votes to be gained versus the downside even if he took that narrow minded a position. I also did not suggest you normalize any behavior like that but it is time for both sides to recognize they have some bad eggs voting with them that reflect badly on them, and it is best to immediately separate themselves from them. Extreme behavior from either side begets more bad behavior in return. No one wins, it is why the more middle positions have to work together or risk allowing the extremes to determine our fate.
Look, I would love to see all bad things happen equally to the extremes on both sides. I am not out killing any of them but if someone has to get cancer, or in a car wreck, I hope it is the loonies that cause these things that suffer. I realize that doesn’t happen that way, but I do see them as the same and wish them the worst. But I am not going to put them in separate piles, they support the exact same behavior for different reasons. I d
on’t care as much about why their beliefs are wrong, it is their attempting to impose it on others, or act violently against others. That is why I said what I did, there are multiple people/groups to be condemned…..and it needs to stop. It won’t work if we only call out one side, it will inflame the situation, and it has. Lets hope some people in the middle work together to calm the waters.
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So what’s your explanation for the ridiculous stuff he said at yesterday’s press conference?
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I think his sentence you quoted has the explanation in it.
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Interesting choice of words in the wake of what happened in C’ville…
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Read it any way you wish, twist any way you wish, but I am saying I don’t go around hating or attending anyone’s demonstrations. But I do hate to see good people, innocent people die when there are plenty of these radicals, ON ALL SIDES, walk away. Isolate them, punish them, but don’t excuse what they bring on the rest of us. That idiot used a car, some use molotov cocktails, other guns or knives, some even bombs, or bats. I would like to see them all hauled off in body bags. And I don’t think I am in the minority, but I don’t care if I am. Actions should have consequences, comparable consequences. It doesn’t matter their skin color, or ideology, just take a tougher stance on the trouble makers. Don’t excuse them.
I think what happened at UVA was disgusting, hope they put that punk in front of a firing squad. But don’t go all ballistic on the UVA situation and think it is at the same level of the targeting of Dallas and Baton Rouge police officers. No one is rushing to defend or rationalize the actions in Charlottesville, be more afraid of those who shied away from taking on what we witnessed in the last couple of years of hate. There will be no winners with hate in the streets, will not change a single opinion, but there should be some losers. If that doesn’t fit your viewpoint, sorry.
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That’s exactly what Trump did. You’re either too stubborn or too invested in the man to admit it.
I’ll keep saying it as long as you keep denying it: “but libruls” isn’t a defense to a refusal to condemn Nazis and their fellow travelers.
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Last post on this for me. Again I tell you, I am not invested in the man at all. Voted against the imbecilic, lying candidate the other party put up more than for him. He would never have come close to getting out of the gates without the fiasco of the last two elections. Libtards brought this on themselves, imo when they jumped off the extreme left end of the bridge. Just a tiny bit of moderation would have been enough, but they over indulged.
But while not invested, you are way off base if you think he is in the camp of the crazies on the right. He simply put them in the same category as the left wing nutjobs….and he is right to do so. Hate on both sides, looks a lot alike when you see the end product. That is really what the “journalists” are pissed at, maybe they see themselves in the mirror. Different rally, same result….violence.
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Fine, Mac. You’re not invested in Trump. You’re invested in “but libruls”.
Point fingers at journalists, if that’s what rocks your boat, but Trump’s been repudiated by business leaders, military leaders, religious leaders, conservative pundits and prominent members of his own party. It’s been perhaps the most unifying moment of his presidency.
None of this is hard, you know. Violence in support of any ideology should be condemned, but that doesn’t make the underlying ideologies equal. Fascism is un-American. Opposing fascism isn’t. White supremacy is un-American. Opposing white supremacy isn’t. Marching in support of symbols of white supremacy is un-American. Protesting those who march in support of symbols of white supremacy isn’t. Any halfway competent politician can make the distinction. Sessions and Cruz managed it. But Trump couldn’t, or, more likely (“cherish our history”), wouldn’t.
Apparently, neither can you.
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You lost me at implying that antifa is on the side of angels. Fascism is bad. Communism is just as bad. Don’t get caught up in names. Maybe if the nazis renamed their group “The Society of Social Harmony” people would be more tolerant of them?
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I certainly didn’t mean to imply that Communism isn’t un-American. But if you’re thinking it’s merely about what’s in a name, perhaps you ought to consider the difference between what the alt-righters were doing in C’ville vs. what antifa was doing there.
And, again, for what seems like the umpteenth time, the issue for me here is what Trump said. You shouldn’t get caught up in names, either.
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According to your left wing source, antifa was there to block the path of protestors from getting to the park and to chase them away with sticks, sorry “community defense tools.”
Face it. Antifa is deliberately militant and violent. As such, it shouldn’t surprise anybody that people not on the extreme left have trouble seeing them as victims of those they set out to oppress.
That’s the irony here. Two groups stand opposed each wanting to oppress the other and you’re pissed that Trump hasn’t declared Nazis to be worse than Communists. I just don’t see what the outrage is over.
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I’ve already said violence in support of any ideology is wrong.
If you believe that the alt-right only wants to oppress antifa, you’re doing this wrong.
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Sure. But your position on this thread has been that you’re
upset that Trump is condemning violence in general rather than only condemning violence from one side.
And if you think that Antifa (a group vastly bigger than the Klan) only wants to oppress extremists, you haven’t been paying attention.
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That’s not even close to what I’ve said. My problem with Trump is that he’s incapable of unequivocally condemning Nazis and the KKK.
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By condemning violence on all sides, he condemned both the Nazis and the Communists. That seems reasonable to me.
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Bully for you.
Look, Trump can hold press conferences condemning antifa on a daily basis, for all I care.
The issue, again, that caused me to react isn’t the violence. I’ve got no problem with a POTUS condemning violence perpetrated in the name of anyone’s ideology. But you, like Trump, are completely ignoring what triggered the confrontation in C’ville: the alt-right’s desire to make an issue over the city’s decision to remove Lee’s statue. (To be fair, he’s gone one step further, as he appears to be approving it.) Like Trump, you’re also ignoring the peaceful protest the night before the violence when the KKK and people proudly marching under Nazi banners chanted anti-Semitic slogans. That’s what offends me deeply.
This was an occasion when it should have been easy and obvious to blast white supremacy without qualification or excusing it under the cover of “both sides”. There are plenty of politicians across the political spectrum who managed it, including Trump’s own Attorney General. That Trump can’t do it is troubling. That you can’t see that is troubling, too.
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I find violence more troubling than peaceful protests. Even protests by jerks shouting offensive things. One of the reasons we have the First Amendment is so that people can say offensive and unpopular things peacefully. While I wouldn’t mind Trump condemning a peaceful protest by Nazis, I don’t know why he would need to. People peacefully advocate for offensive ideas every day. No need to stop the presses when it happens.
I know that most people, especially politicians, will condemn the extreme right while pandering to the extreme left. I expect that. But I don’t find it all that troubling when a politician condemns both extremes.
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That is certainly your prerogative and I don’t mean to denigrate that.
As to what Trump needs to do, well, here’s a guy who has no trouble jumping to conclusions and lashing out at judges, Muslims and others purely on the basis of their ethnicity. Except he can’t do it when it comes to the alt-right. I have a huge problem with that. Evidently, your mileage varies.
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Sure. I don’t mean to imply that he’s not a douche. I guess my dislike of Communists outweighs my dislike of Trump.
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Commies don’t represent me. Unfortunately, Trump, as my President, does.
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Nice post Mac, agree…and your experience growing up in the south is the same as mine.
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Let me set this shit straight:
If a bunch of fucking rag heads get a permit to hold a rally in downtown Athens where they burn the American flag and chant “death to America” I expect 1) the police to make an effort to protect those idiots and 2) Good Americans will show up to try to rip them to shreds.
After these fuckheads get their asses kicked, if a president said “both sides”, the terrorist supporters and the people trying to shut them the fuck up are “bad” he’s a fucking shitbag who isn’t fit to serve. He’s not to be acknowledged as anything but on his way out.
The only difference here is that some (YOU!) and Il Douche are sympathetic to the cause of the klan and the Nazis and the white nationalists and antisemitic and thoughts racial purity and supremacy.
It’s obvious. It’s apparent. You’ve been clear. And I’m done with the bullshit that this “both sides” is anything but coddling of people I hold in the same contempt as ISIS and the Taliban. Go fuck your self nazi.
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Is it Ok on the alt-left to call middle easterner’s “rag heads”? That seems racist to me.
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Fuck you too. You’re the speech police today. You’re the ones who feel compelled to verbally coddle the enemies of freedom and democracy. I won’t and I could give a fuck about their damn fee fees.
If your ideology has demonstrated that you wish to (and will) cleanse the planet of those who don’t look like you or believe as you do, I say call them what you want and bash thier fucking heads in with bats.
Free speech ain’t free and among the costs is that your speech and your symbols will cause unrest, anger and violent outbursts. It’s illegal and ought to be but it is NOT morally inferior to physically challenge and confront hate. As long as anybody is willing to accept the legal consequences they should confront that ideology by any and all means necessary. Make the cost too high to do anything but for them to sit in their mother’s basement on stormfront but stay out of the public square.
I initially thought Il Douche was a clumsy fool on Saturday who agreed that it was better to say the right thing on Monday. Then came Tuesday and I am angry. The truth is that he’s a sympathizer as are you.
Either you think you’d cheer for the people challenging the terrorists I described above OR you think nazis and the klan is simply a better, more favored ideology. You can’t have it both ways. You have to choose. I’ve made my choice and you and Il Douche have made yours.
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You continue to prove there are bad people on both sides, just like Trump said. Do you just write nonsense all day? Don’t you have a job or some statues to go deface?
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I’ll always make time to fight stupid.
“There’s no moral equivalency between racists & Americans standing up to defy hate & bigotry. The President of the United States should say so”
Sen. John McCain
Why can’t Der Fugrrabber find the moral courage to say that?
Because it doesn’t exist.
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Today from Shep Smith said, “We, our booking team and they’re good, reached out to Republicans of all stripes across the country today. Let’s be honest, Republicans often don’t really mind coming on Fox News Channel. We couldn’t get anyone to come and defend him here because we thought in balance someone should do that.”
Either its indefensible or your entire party is a bunch of cowards. Your choice.
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I’m not surprised you spend your day watching Fox News and posting on blog comment boards.
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I am anxiously awaiting the first blog post on The Minority Report. Go figure the only thing you have written is an expose on yourself.
Senator, what is the limit on f bombs, racial slurs, and accusations of being a nazi before you get banned? This idiot has his own space to spew hate but he is piggybacking on your success.
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Someone needs a safe space. You’re getting all melty.
Tough day for nazi sympathizers ain’t it?
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Btw I like how you confronted the issue of a “terrorism rally” I raised 14 hours ago.
In two days you’ve shown yourself to be a moral, intellectual and, with your whining, an actual coward. Nice trifecta there.
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“After years of trying and failing to find an audience (or any feedback) for subjects more complex than those addressed in the 24-hour news cycle, I decided that I needed a place to discuss, learn and occasionally vent about meaningful issues.”
I wonder why no one listens to you? I am glad you found this place to get an audience so you can spew your alt-left hate. I hope your not as miserable in life as you are online. I am sure we will talk again, I somewhat enjoy calling out your bullshit and watching you melt down.
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Yeah, but you didn’t call me out. You’re a wuss. You were challenged whether you would say “both sides” in response to an anti-American, pro-terrorist, pro-Muslim, anti-Christian rally that went horribly awry because people of good will decided is better to distupt the peace, risk jail and life and limb to confront that bullshit and you passed. You don’t challenge anyone. You whine. You shrink. You are a detestable coward AND, at a minimum, a Nazi sympathizer if not in your heart of hearts a supporter. ESAFD you retrograde cowardly scumbag.
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https://mobile.twitter.com/theyearofelan/status/897618856084205568
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Never heard of it, and it doesn’t seem like I’ve missed much.
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