What I’ve observed with these discussions about player compensation is that much of it is driven on one side by what I’ve referred to as the romance of amateurism. People don’t like the idea of players getting paid because it interferes with their vision of participation purely for the love of the sport.
Believe it or not, I don’t have a problem with that. I stopped feeling that way a few years ago, but I can respect the position. Where my respect stops is at the point where some try to dress up their emotional investment in the notion with economic arguments that make little sense. And where my anger starts is with the NCAA’s obvious and cynical milking of that romance.
The NCAA has responded that fans don’t want college sports to go pro. As NCAA President Mark Emmert recently put it, “one of the biggest reasons fans like college sports is that they believe the athletes are really students who play for a love of the sport.”
But, could there be something else in play that explains why folks don’t want student-athletes getting paid? Um… you tell me.
Could racial prejudice also affect attitudes toward paying college athletes? There are good reasons to believe that it could.
According to NCAA data from 2014, blacks constitute the majority of players in college football and basketball, the two sports that most people think of when they think of college athletics. Given this reality, it would be strange if questions about paying college athletes did not conjure up images of young black men in the minds of survey respondents.
To find out whether racial prejudice influences white opinion on paying college athletes, we conducted a survey of opinions on “pay for play” policies using the 2014 CCES.
In a statistical analysis that controlled for a host of other influences, we found this: Negative racial views about blacks were the single most important predictor of white opposition to paying college athletes.
The more negatively a white respondent felt about blacks, the more they opposed paying college athletes.
Before your knee begins instinctively jerking in response, consider such comments as this…
“I don’t think paying all college athletes is great,” said Cowherd. “Not every college is loaded, and most 19-year-olds [are] gonna spend it – and let’s be honest, they’re gonna spend it on weed and kicks! And spare me the ‘they’re being extorted’ thing. Listen, 90 percent of these college guys are gonna spend it on tats, weed, kicks, Xbox’s, beer and swag. They are, get over it!”
… and tell me you can’t detect even the faintest whiff of prejudice there. And yes, Cowherd is a major ass, but he’s hardly alone in that department.
Read the linked piece in its entirety and draw your own conclusions.
(h/t)
Get The Picture 
Yesterday guns, today race? No wonder you’re getting 500k hits a month Senator! Btw, congrats on that; best UGA blog on the interwebs and isn’t not even close.
As for the topic of this post, I’ll just say people are going to see what they want to see. While I suspect I personally agree with you, I totally understand where the other side is coming from on this too.
The real story is that the universities and conferences are whores. It was unbelievably arrogant to think they could continue to lap up every penny available and not think that eventually the labor was going to see an imbalance.
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This, more than anything, is the essence of things right now. You couldn’t be more right.
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But, But, But they’re charitable educational institutions, dedicated to the pursuit of knowledge.
My cynical side is coming out again, and this diverges from the main point, but I bet that 15-20 years into this swimming in money stuff we’re gonna find out that nonprofit college administrators are worse financial managers than doctors.
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I think it’s safe to say we already know they are.
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First comment of the day and you summed it the entire situation perfectly in one paragraph. Well played.
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I concede the correlation between negative views of blacks and opposition to paying college athletes. But that’s not a surprise nor is it news. The useful data (IMVHO) would be the reasons why ‘non bigots’ oppose paying athletes.
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Like I said, romance is a valid reason for some folks.
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Yeah you did. I guess I’d just like to be entertained by some of the other rationalizations. Racism and romance, while big, are kinda obvious.
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Well, I think we know why Mark Emmert prefers it. 😉
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Yeah and I guess this ties into the romance part of it, but I think a big reason is simply because as fans, we love the school first, and players 2nd (speaking in general terms). Just as an example, we were all huge Aaron Murray fans not because he was such a good college QB, but because he was such a good QB specifically for UGA. So I think it’s still natural for some folks to see the need for the primary beneficiary of the program to be the school/athletic dept, not the players, especially when combined with the romance aspect of players playing simply because they love the game – and school.
I’ve definitely come around to believing the players should be getting their slice of the pie. But I held on to the romance notion for a long time, for sure.
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If the schools loved the fans as much as the money they chase, I’d probably still be invested in the romance notion myself. But that ship sailed for good after the last nonsensical round or two of conference realignment.
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Very valid point.
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Yep and the Find UGA behind the McDonald’s fries, the ribbon advertisements, the TV timeouts for every play stoppage, the GEICO karaoke, the minimum $2,500 contribution to get a parking space within a mile of the stadium, etc.
The universities love the money more than anything else. I haven’t completely lost my love for college sports, but that love gets duller as the years go by.
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Don’t forget the kickoff being brought to us by Regions Bank. If it were not for those generous folks at Regions Bank the officials and players would be wandering around after the coin toss with nothing to do.
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Love it. Seems like we’re leaving a lot of money on the table, though. The Redcoat Band, UGA, Chapel Bell, tailgate zones, IPF… None of these are sponsored. Somebody needs to get on that.
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The Redcoats presented by Guitar Center, UGA powered by Science Diet, the Chapel Bell rung by Northpoint Community Church, Tailgate zones presented by your favorite adult beverage brand, the IPF built by the Home Depot, the DawgWalk sponsored by Nike, the parking garages presented by Park ‘N Fly
AD, get on it now.
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Good point Hogbody. According to some studies referenced in Malcolm Gladwell’s book ‘Blink’ it is a subconscious prejudice stemming from cultural influences and human nature. Most of us don’t realize there is a prejudice there, but according to those studies it is.
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Everybody is prejudiced, regardless of race, creed, color, etc., etc. Everybody. Anybody who says they’re not is claiming to be free from the weaknesses of ordinary men and women.
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True.
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Maybe so, but understanding the need to control that for the betterment of civilization–and just because it’s the right thing to do–is kind of important.
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Agreed. But I just like pointing out hypocrisies, because everybody is,
But me. 🙂
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Read Ben Watson’s book – Under Our Skin. It’s one of the most thoughtful and thought-provoking pieces on race and prejudice I’ve ever read. Damn Good Dawg!
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Boy, this thread is gonna be an absolute shitshow. And that’s my only comment. I want to try to hang onto the one or two friends (virtually speaking) that I’ve got left here after blaspheming Herschel and Grizzard.
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It’s ok Dolly, (pat, pat) At least you did not write the lies about Herschel fumbling three times against Clemson. 😀 And I have to admit, I get exorcised about Jim Valvano, especially his the conversion that took place because he died. He was a cheatin SOB before he got cancer, now he’s a hero….only in Amurika.
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Chin up guys. If you’re not being called ignorant or stupid in these comments often, then you’re just not trying. We’ve all been there.
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Who yanked your chain, you stupid bastard? 🙂
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Well, the Jimmy V. thing is near and (not) dear to my heart for a different reason. I work at NC State, and it seems like (and probably is) the last moment of national glory any of their revenue sports ever had, and you still see/hear his bullshit all over campus. That was over thirty years ago, and right at the same time Herschel was big. I just don’t ever want us to be like them, hanging on to past glories tied to some semi-mythical figure. (I know Herschel wasn’t a myth, but you know what I’m saying.)
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Did not NC State fire Valvano cause he got caught cheating? Maybe I misremember.
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I think they did, yes. Clemson (where I’ve also worked) fired Danny Ford for the same reason. At neither institution did those firings blunt the edge of the fans’ reverence.
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Who cheated more? Ford at Clemson or Jackie Sherrill at A&M?
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The difference between Herschel/Valvano/Ford and Sherrill is that nobody ever mentions Jackie Sherrill anymore except as a cheater and a suck-ass TV talking head.
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Or, or this is deciding on your preferred conclusion and using the most politically feared hammer to reach that destination. I don’t think college lacrosse players should be paid, therefore I hate white people.
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Look, Bub, my opinion to not pay players was stated long ago and it concerned the crowbar that schools would use if it wasn’t standardized. Well, they are using it even though you and a few others here said that wouldn’t happen. My opinion was based on socio-economic factors and I stated that any difference in amounts given to players would be used in recruiting and we are now watching that resultant play out. Then you have the other inherent problems of player pay inequality on the same team that was proposed by paying according to position. That’ll really hold a team together!
There are other opinions not based on racism that are not presented that have logical reasoning for consideration in not paying players. Why not stack them together for consideration instead of going for the popular reason-dunking that occurs when racism is brought into an argument?
Long ago I predicted a Pandora’s Box (don’t be taking that as a sexual reference) of problems, but instead of discussing them the conversation was led in other directions. As I said in the beginning, solve the inherent problems before opening up issues that will kill the college football we enjoy. I realize that is selfish, but if you ruin the football we enjoy before you pay them; what’s the point?
Pay the athletes after solving the problems that go with that step.
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When did I say that?
The market is messy and anything but standardized.
And the idea that college players are such fragile flowers that pay inequality would shatter team cohesiveness makes me wonder how kids from poor backgrounds view their well-to-do teammates.
Your “inherent problems” aren’t solvable. They’re just excuses to maintain the status quo.
Again, just say “I don’t like players getting paid” and leave it at that.
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I don’t like players getting paid.
I also loathe the inevitable, predictable distillation of every issue into one of identity/racial/grievance driven politics and using said grievances to silent dissent, but I guess I am just an ignorant dullard who is out of touch with contemporary enlightenment. Should have known that paying college athelents would land on race. After all, these aren’t opportunities for kids that may not otherwise have any, they are plantations – so we have been told.
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You know what? That’s what I loathe. Because nobody’s being forced to shut up. And based on the whining about it, nobody is shutting up.
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When race is weaponized, as it so often is, one of the objectives of those wielding the weapon is to silent dissent. Any opposing view has to acquiesce for fear of being labeled a racist. Are there circumstances that call for a thoughtful discussion on race and a need to adress true injustices? Of course there are. However, not every issue has a racial element, but why stop know?
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So there is absolutely no trace of race in the discussion of compensation of college football players?
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Okay, let’s take the discussion to the extremes and absolutes. Have fun going down that rabbit hole, but you will have to do it with someone else. Problems are generally solved by attacking the underlying root causes vs. clouding them distant influences/issues on the margin of the real debate.
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I guess the difference between you and I is that you see the issue as extremely peripheral, at best, to the debate at hand, and I don’t. Whatever. Peace. This discussion hasn’t been quite the shitshow I thought it’d be so far, but it hasn’t been exactly high-minded, either.
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Agreed, it hasn’t been as much of a low brow food fight as I would have imagined.
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Exaggerate much? Who’s been silenced? And what does “weaponized” mean, anyway?
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It means it makes some people feel bad. Nazi.
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No one has been silenced here, which was hardly my point. It should be obvious, but I will point out it is easier to get an honest/open discussion on race on a message board where people have anonymity to convey thier perspectives without fear of being labeled a racist. As for what weaponizing race means, I’ll trust you are being coy. Nonetheless, I will explain. It is taking an issue that might otherwise not have race as a core element and cloaking it in racial terms so as to bully or achieve an objective as to dissent would mean one is labeled a racist in the public square.
To be clear, racism exist. Racism is bad. However, this dialogue speaks to the issues it creates when introduced to any topic. Consequently, I am suggesting it not be introduced in a casual manner (i.e. attaching it to a discussion of paying college athletes, whom I would guess [too lazy to validate] are majority white).
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“… it is easier to get an honest/open discussion on race on a message board where people have anonymity to convey thier perspectives without fear of being labeled a racist.”
Um, so what does that say?
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People are easily intimidated by the fear of being called a racist just because they dare to disagree on a topic such as this. Obviously, the Internet anonymity works both ways and brings out the virulent racist crackpots as well, but those morons should not be engaged in serious discussions anyway. What I was attempting to address was race baiting thuggery that is too often used to coerce people into not questioning or offering any debate. It sad, because race issues need to be debated in a thoughtful and serious way and not exploited, which happens on both ends of the political spectrum.
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Reply to your 0917 response: Once again you dismiss the discussion of inherent problems as someone else’s excuse for maintaining the status quo while it is plain that it is your excuse to avoid it. Further, our discussion at that time also involved paying players deferentially and that’s when I opposed with the assurdity of 300 lb linemen wannabees becoming QBs to get mo’ money and, lo and behold, one showed up at a Mississippi SEC school. Your argument against solving the problems appears fececious(sic). You dismissed my opinion that players may go to another school just for a $1oo.oo difference, much less a $1000.00 difference that some schools have used in recruiting already. That grinds my ass that you can dismiss that as not worrisome and then state the problem is unsolvable and then state that my word meaning is an “excuse”. I call “Bullshit!” to that , Sir, and your words stand as an excuse by you. My last sentence certainly doesn’t fit into an “excuse” not to pay players. Changing that opinion to your last stated sentence in reply shows that your frame of mind isn’t going to confront any of the problems inherent with player pay while trucking on and whistlin’ thru the graveyard.
You have used race in remarks before when differing with opinions (Lambert vs Golson coming to UGA; The 5* WR who crept into room and stole from the female student). Got lots of friends and a horde of rednecks who would differ with you as to my thinking concerning racism. Quite frankly, it is the only pure evil that I can logically say exists in this world.
You are dead wrong about my attitude about paying players and if reasoning for solving problems proactively before they get worse is to be construed as “maintaining the status quo” then you should read alternate opinions more comprehensively.
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Who exactly do you think is going to step up and address your concerns?
Until there’s a real answer to that question, it’s hard for me to get worked up about what’s got you so … um, verbose.
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“Fececious” is either the funniest misspelling or brilliant intent I’ve ever seen. Probably was just all flagellent and made-up?
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“(sic)” ?
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When all this started becoming an issue, I felt the same way – that giving money to the players before figuring out the “perfect” system to do it was going to cause more problems than it was worth.
But I think what it comes down to is 2 things…
First, there is no “perfect” way to do it that solves all the problems. Simply isn’t possible.
Second, you have to ask yourself – hypothetically if there were a perfect system, would you then agree that they (the athletes) deserve their slice of the pie? Deserve is the key word there. Because if you believe that, then you have to believe that they deserve it regardless. So by saying that they shouldn’t get any money until all the problems are solved, you’re saying that it’s more fair to just not give them ANY of what they deserve than to at least give them SOMETHING, even if it’s in an imperfect system. From the athlete’s perspective, I bet they’d rather get “less” than get nothing at all.
It took me a while to come around to that realization. But it all comes down to whether you feel they deserve their slice or not. If you feel they don’t deserve it, that doesn’t make you a bad person or anything, it just is what it is. But you if you do feel that they deserve it, then saying they shouldn’t get it until some perfect system is established just really isn’t an argument that holds water.
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I seem to remember Jon Stewart, in his farewell “Daily Show” appearance, referring to this attitude as the “We don’t know everything, so we shouldn’t do anything” philosophy.
Some would call this making the perfect the enemy of the good. The more cynical among us (e.g., me) would go a little further and chalk it up to a simple case of “I don’t fuckin’ wanna.”
Sadly, the situation with athletes is but a microcosm of our attitude as a nation right now: We hold up jobs as sacred, extol the virtues of the working class and excoriate those who won’t work, but when those who are working ask for a little more in their paycheck, they get called rabble-rousers and socialists (often by folks who make more money than the worker bees can even dream of).
How we expect anybody to believe in the importance of an honest day’s work in this kind of environment is beyond me, but as other posters have said…that’s Amurrka, I suppose.
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+1,000. It was called “Bullshit of infinite possibilities”. And like the rest of that farewell monologue, it was brilliant.
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Rev, suffice it to say that I don’t agree with your logic that a contrary opinion is a bit of a filibuster move not to pay players NOW. Players are getting money right now so that’s off the table. Also, schools are now using pay differences to out-recruit us. Is that what you want? We will solve it down the road after some genius figures out how to get it evened up and not before we blame everyone else for it being used against us? Gedouttaheah.
“Perfection” is not the name of the game in any problem solving. The things you stamp on others’ word meanings is poor reasoning for us to try to understand one another. Your “coming to Jesus” about paying players and your logic thereafter is arrogant and not mundane to the argument. You make the assumption that anyone arguing against paying at this moment is someone who really is not arguing in the best interests of the players. Not true – and you won’t understand that until you assume that I want them to receive COA money as much as anyone, but I’m unwilling to burn down the village to pay everyone what they deserve.
Is there anyone here that thinks that players aren’t getting some money now to fend off the bankers (apologies to you money people)? Does everyone know of a fund that has well over a M to defray unfortunate occurrences in athletes lives at UGA? It has been used before and can be again, even to defray costs for everyday living for those student athletes who suffer from indigence and it is available to give them SOMETHING. That fund can be used to keep the player pay decision out of the NOW! category. Just because you and Blutarsky don’t think it can be solved is no reason to plough straight ahead as if in an emergency. Besides, I already know of a bunch of people on here with minds better than yours, Blutarsky’s and mine who can probably come up with a “solution” that isn’t perfect, but can stop much of the fallout Pome d’ Rue you guys want foisted on everyone because there is “no other way”. Horseshit.
I’m not arguing for the status quo and the team “owners”, rather, I’m arguing not to stack shit on top of shitty problems and then sit back with a clear conscience.
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This correlation is undeniably true. It’s also true that those who say that the current system is racist would balk at my suggestion that colleges play with actual college students because there is no question that big time college football and basketball would get much whiter in the short term.
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Take their scholarships away…see how they like that. Pay checks are issued to NFL players..go there.
Seriously, are the scholarship and COA payments not enough?
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Take their scholarships away and the NCAA has… nothing. Congrats! You’ve solved the problem.
Threatening to take away their scholarship for wanting pay that reflects their value. That’ll learn ’em!
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Except that the NFL has engaged in racketeering by restricting employment until 3 years out of high school while at the same time not investing in a developmental league a la MLB or the NBA.
They basically have a feeder system that they don’t have to pay for.
If you are a fan of big-time college football, you want them schools to figure this out before another market emerges. The second there is a viable developmental minor league for football, the product we all watch on Saturday is going to look much more like 1-AA (or whatever the hell they call it now), than what we’re used to now.
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It’s never going to happen. The NFL has its nice little antitrust exemption in addition to its union shop CBA with the NFLPA. The NFL owners know D-league football is a money loser, so there’s no way they are going down that road. There’s no way I spend a couple thousand + travel expenses per year to go see D-league football over college. I’ll become a high school football fan again over that.
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Agreed. A minor league football program is never gonna happen as an alternative to college football. Only way it happens is if college football ceases to exist, which also isn’t gonna happen.
Minor league baseball and D-League teams play lots of games, and have relatively small rosters. So lots of opportunity to make money off concessions, ticket sales, etc, even with smaller crowds, and only a few salaries to pay.
A D-League for football would probably have like 10 games, at least 60 or so salaries to pay for the roster, and small crowds. Just no way to make the numbers work. Literally the ONLY way it could work would be for the NFL to subsidize it and absorb the losses. But why in the world would they ever do that as long as college football accomplishes the same thing for free? If there was a market for a developmental league alternative, it would have been done by now. (Actually is HAS been done – numerous times – and all have failed).
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Yep, Reverend. Great comments. I would even suggest that if MLB had the opportunity to go back in time, they would grab the NFL/NBA model with the colleges as well. Minor league baseball worked in an era of limited travel and no real national media (and certainly no TV or Internet) pre WW2. The parent MLB clubs subsidize their minor league systems today by absorbing all of the player personnel development costs, so the local team only has to pay its local operating expenses.
You are right on regarding football. Any time developmental league football has been tried, it has failed spectacularly. You couldn’t pay me to go watch the Greenville Striped Cats play the Athens English Canines in an NFL D-League game instead of the Clemson University Tigers and the University of Georgia Bulldogs.
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In a market economy why is “enough” an issue? The only question is whether this is or isn’t a market. Once you say yes, then the prices will be based on value not your personal sense of proportionality. In other words, I may think that a value meal at McDonald’s should cost no more than 3 dollars, but that doesn’t mean a damn thing to anyone.
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Yes, the scholarships & COA payments are enough
The players may need & should have some spending money.
However, A college .degree has much more value than what is
spent to get a degree. Lose the scholarship & pay them?
I don’t think so. The scholarship is the main payment always.
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I understand your position and I am not going to argue with your philosophy. I do have a serious question. Since the 10th Circuit Federal Court of Appeals has affirmed a finding that the anti-trust laws apply to college football and college en basketball players, and that the NCAA is a combination fixing prices in the market contrary to the anti-trust laws, what is your fall-back position if the courts rule that the NCAA unilaterally declaring “the scholarships & COA payments are enough” violates the law? If your response is to draw the line in that sand you will be leaving the remedy to the courts. If you would rather stand for that principle and risk the courts setting a compensation system, then fine.
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I’m just fascinated by this attitude… how DARE they want to be compensated better for risking their health in an effort to entertain us? Ask Devon Gales if the scholarship and cost of attendance payments are enough.
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Kessler is going to blow the whole thing up eventually unless the NCAA and its members get an antitrust exemption (good luck with that in today’s political environment). The solution is really generally easy.
1) The top 64-80 schools need to break away from the NCAA and form their own organization (not autonomy).
2) Enable full cost of attendance scholarships and implement the CAPA-suggested reforms.
3) Allow student-athletes to trade on name and likeness. If Athens BMW wants to give Sony Michel the use of a car in exchange for appearing in a commercial, why not? If Derrick Henry wants to sign autographs for $50 a piece, why shouldn’t he?
4) Allow student-athletes to get jobs that don’t interfere with their commitments. For S-As that aren’t going to be professional athletes, they are behind their peers in the job search process since they can’t work. I recruit at UGA for my company and you wouldn’t believe how much relevant work experience recent college graduates have on their resumes.
5) Everyone pays the taxes due.
6) The enforcement rulebook gets simplified and the penalties for violations should be severe to both the institution and the S-A.
Does this seem like it would work?
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Makes too much sense. (Also upsets the applecart too much.)
As per #1, perhaps the top 64-80 programs keep the NCAA and suggests the others get their own. We laugh at/loathe the NCAA, but the schools established it and maintain it because it keeps the money rolling in (to everyone but players).
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The problem with the NCAA in its current form is that the schools that play D1 for one or two sports (like men’s basketball) have the same voice in decision making that a P5 member who is really affected by all of this. That’s why I believe those 64-80 programs need to form their own organization with their own rules (and their own championships).
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Right. If the top programs expelled the others, I imagine they’d broach the issue of proportional (income) representation.
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The problem with that is there are almost 350 colleges and universities currently in D1. The P5 can’t get this done.
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We had a similar discussion in the summer of 2014 and we respectfully disagreed with each as to number 1. The value of the men’s NCAA basketball tournament is so great to all the schools that I doubt that UGA would walk away from the check it gets. The value of an 80 team organization’s post-season basketball tournament to the networks is dramatically less than the value is now.
I recall you kindly replied that your thought it would be and I respectfully (I hope) disagreed.
I am fine with the rest of your suggestions. I do not believe that the school would cede any control over the players voluntarily, however.
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I had forgotten that, Gaskill. I just think this is the only way it works. You’re right. The schools would need to consider how March Madness could work. It’s the only thing of value provided by the NCAA. I would suggest less money from a broadcast partner with a reduced cut off the top by the governing organization split among fewer institutions could possibly be revenue neutral and be more compelling television.
JMHO but I absolutely respect your thoughts …
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The drastically reduced pieces of pie may offset the reduced size of the pie.
CBS and Turner do not pay big bucks because of guys such as me who love basketball. Those networks believe the Cinderella teams winning the first round and “BRACKETS!!!!” drive the tournament ratings. If there were no Princetons upsetting defending champions or Georgia States with a coach and son story the value of the tournament plummets.
It would also be interesting. If the Power 5 split off there would still be a 68 team tournament with the chance of Georgia State upsetting the Villanovas. What tournament would CBS prefer to cover? I could not say
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I don’t know either, but I generally only have a passing interest in the tournament anyway. I fill out a bracket but am not glued to the TV or Internet checking on it. I barely remember who won the darn thing last year.
The CBS ads for the Masters are pretty much the only thing I care about. 🙂
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That puts you in good company! I am the oddball who likes basketball more than football, so March Madness is my favorite college event. The best championship series in sports is the NBA playoffs. See, I doubled down on odd-ball-ness!
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See, I would see a P5 March Madness as similar to the NBA playoffs. Not one and done but 16(?) teams in a series type of format. Not all the way to best of 7 but some variant. Best of 3 in the first two rounds and best of 5 after that.
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I thought I was the only one that commented here that likes bouncy hoops more than football. Glad to see I’m not alone in that.
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Damn! There’s two of us?!!
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I wouldn’t bother with the idea of student athletes. If they want to take classes, that’s fine, every other professional can take classes while holding down a full time job.
Otherwise, it’s just expanding the charade that these are students participating in an extracurricular activity.
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lol, I didn’t hate it, I just skipped it. I only got to the second sentence of this one. The whole financial aspect of college football is not my thing. I understand that some people – including you – enjoy it, but I just want football. That said, continue on. It is easy to skip over the financial stuff. 😀
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I’m wit yew, QSD, I’m glad these nice folks are worrying about the money, their worry frees me to worry about that third running back we gonna need Saturday.
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I’ve said this many years ago…I went to graduate school and got paid $20,000 a year to earn my PhD. My first year I taught chemistry labs and a few lectures. After the first year I got a research grant and did only research for the next 4 years. I don’t see where the difference is in paying atheletes. We both provide services and both generate money for the University. Admittedly, I went to Clemson and not UGA but it is the same situation at all major universities…but the difference being some universities had bigger or smaller stipends then others.
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Ray, I’ve never thought about it that way, but you’re absolutely correct. UGA paid me to go to graduate school in exchange for being a TA in the J School.
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Both of which supported the schools intended mission.
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The mission of the football program is to win games. If paying players furthers that mission, well, good. I’d think an Auburn fan, of all people, would understand this.
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Yeah, Dolly, and the IRS was getting a little of yourmoney as well until schools pointed out that teaching was part of the requirement for getting a degree and that made your small stipend untaxable (or at least you could get it back after filing taxes) after the IRS ruling was made.
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Cojones, it was so long ago that I don’t remember whether I was taxed on it or not. And I sure as hell don’t still have my W2s. I do remember that I was happy to get it, and I’ve never been one to think that the taxes I pay/paid were just someone else out there drinking my milkshake.
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I won’t go any farther on it. You have your opinion and I have mine. And its a topic worth discussing. I worked in sports marketing for 20 years. Professional sports and collegiate athletics aren’t the same. Not even close. Is the system in college driven by greed and presidents hypocrites often? Absolutely. But not at every school and by every administration. College athletics are a business no doubt. But the system of labor and where revenue is generated and spent are completely different.
The labor markets are 100% different. No other sports business replaces its labor by 25% every year. As is the way revenue is spent. It goes back into the university and non-revenue sports, many that would be eliminated or significantly reduced without football revenue. The money doesn’t go into an individual owners pocket. This is apples to oranges.
And to imply its driven by racial reasons and support it with Colin Cowherd’s comments is ridiculous. Can there be racial issues involved, I am sure there are but its not the main issue in my opinion. And many on here imply that they know what I am “feeling” and I am this or that and that’s bull—-, I simply feel based on the totality of the situation, given these athletes ARE paid, they are given an education, provided with opportunities to succeed or not, given travel opportunities, housing, food, medical, and now a stipend (and I could make a case for a slightly higher stipend) but anything beyond that would create a larger imbalance and unintended consequences that in my opinion would significantly damage the sport and the collegiate athletic experience for so many athletes in all sports.
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“…anything beyond that would create a larger imbalance and unintended consequences that in my opinion would significantly damage the sport and the collegiate athletic experience for so many athletes in all sports.”
Damage is done. Issues like this are monsters that are beyond anyone’s control. We’re on a course for NCAA player compensation. Nothing will stop it. Nothing.
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Agreed but they ARE compensated. As in, hundreds of thousands of dollars over 3-5 years. So they take everything away, tuition, housing, food and all other benefits and then pay them market value? You think there is damage now, just wait. Train wreck and dumpster fire are two adequate descriptions….
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why would you take all that away? We already compensate the players, we just need to compensate them more.
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I agree that room and board, preparation for the nfl, & a college education are compensation. I would also agree that for most student athletes esp in the non revenue producing sports that level of compensation is not significantly below what he or she could command in an open and competitive market. What i don’t agree is that for a talented and notable athlete such as todd Gurley, that level of compensation is any where close to the amount he could command in an open market place. Also since market value is essentially the value of that specific thing to the buyer in this instance the services of a star athlete such as Todd Gurley for a school it means that offering Gurley only room and board & a degree is significantly under paying him for the value his talents contribute monetarily to UGA.
Let’s put it another way. If we lived in a world where schools could pay players any amount they wished do you honestly think that school’s could lure top athletes such as Jacob Eason with tuition room and board as the only compensation? Of course not. And if uga wins the hypothetical auction for Eason’s services by paying him let’s just call it $500k couldn’t you assume that implicitly Eason’s value to uga is no less than 500k since why would a rational buyer pay more for something than it is worth to said buyer? That’s all I’m saying: that the schools have created a cartel (the NCAA ) that caps compensation below fair market value.
As another point if your employer tomorrow told you that you would no longer recieve a paycheck but hey in return you get a dorm room, free meals, & gym as well and thst firm’s name on your resume. How fair a deal would that sound? Especially when you brought in an additional ten million in revenue just this year. Oh and btw you also learn that all the other firms in your industry have come together and collectively decided everyone in the industry will only offer room and board as compensation. That sound like collusion to you? Because that’s exactly what the schools are doing.
If the doomsday scenario is that non revenue sports so away so be it. However I think that’s a littlefar ffetched considering the astronomical rise in coaching salaries hasn’t brought about the end of college athletics as we know it. And Shocker! Coaching staffs can still work together even though they know some of their own colleagues make more than them. The school also manages to having a fully functional payroll system for these coavhes, but I’msure if aathletes got paid that’s when pandemonium will ensue!
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Agree with pretty much everything you said here, which no doubt makes you and I racist.
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Once federial courts get involved it does not matter what anyone thinks. It’s the only reason NCAA is starting to figure out away to pay players, the greedy bastards surely don’t want too.
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An anecdote:
Many years ago, I was at a game in Sanford where South Carolina beat us behind the play of George Rogers. When leaving the stadium a well-oiled Carolina fan boasted “Our N—– just beat your N—-“. Sounded just like a plantation owner saying it. It was just one guy and one story, but still….well, I
think the Senator makes a point about racism, and really, the kind of racism that is almost romantic like a KA party with ante bellum costumes and such.
The money at Universities in general has gotten crazy in lots of places that have nothing to do with football. When I went to Law School, in-state tuition at UGA was $225.00 per quarter. Slightly more if you took extra hours. Even allowing for books and a few miscellaneous fees here and there you could go to law school an entire three years for less than $5000. One year costs about $50,000 now, and when I was told that, I asked “Is that in-state tuition”, and apparently it is.. I understand there has been inflation in general, but I am confident that these numbers outstrip inflation by a lot. The people graduating from UGA Law today make a lot more in their first year after graduation than I did, but not 300 times more and that is about what it would take to be equivalent. Greed is everywhere…
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Yes that is helpful, bring up an isolated incident from 35 years ago to support his case on racism….
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I’ve seen many, many examples of what DD’s Booty mentions, from 30 years in the past until very recently. Examples (from UGA graduates) include,
“We bought that N a new car, so he’d better score here.”
“Auburn’s got a N QB, so he’ll choke soon.”
“Another dumb N penalty.”
“We get penalized so much because our players are all a bunch of dumb Ns.”
“I’ve got more important things to care about about than a bunch of 22 Ns chasing each other around a field.”
I could go on, but won’t for the sake of concision. Most fans don’t say these things, but plenty have and still do.
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I’ve done projects for for a non profit. I’ve known their executive director for 15+ years. He graduated from Georgia has his masters from another school. Worked in banking and on Wall Street. We don’t talk politics or race much. But on one occasion after working late one evening on a project we went out grabbed a few drinks and had dinner. Interesting conversation. Because he has such a dark complexion a lot of the sisters would not date him. Also he suffered a lot of teasing growing up because of it and his nose. That same teasing drove Michael Jackson to a lot of plastic surgery. He laughed it off. He also said that when blacks get together they have their own jokes and slurs towards other groups.
Even their own.
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Oh, sure. Prejudice and stereotypes aren’t the sole dominion of any racial or ethnic group. And there’s plenty of stereotyping of others in the same racial or ethnic group, too. Not that it’s admirable … but like the t-shirt says “Stereotypes save a lot of time.”
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It is a little over $19,000/year when you include student fees. And you go to the back of the bus when lining up for student tickets.
Med school is a lot higher!
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Amen. But for a guy or gal that grows up in Georgia, MCG (or whatever were calling it now) is still the best price by a long shot compared to all other med schools. By the way, I used to donate to MCG but hang up when caller ID says GRU.
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So of course it was only a matter of time before someone played the race card, it had to happen. Racism is the most misunderstood, and misused, term in America these days, and is often brought into conversations to inflame a discussion, or to promote division between the races. Generally, the term racism is often confused with discrimination, which will never be eliminated and isn’t necessarily a bad thing, but it is almost always used in just one direction, rarely applied equally to all races, or all situations.
The payment to SA’s is not about race, nor is the support/hatred of athletes but it gets clicks and head-nodding among the usual suspects. Often it is cultural differences that drive the divide and these are more at the root of the issues that are often identified as racist. Nearly all Americans accept, idolize, and support those who follow the norms of being a good citizen regardless of their skin color but will resist those who insist on tearing down and operating outside society’s mores. Look at the reverence, support, and commercial value of OJ Simpson and Tiger Woods, pre and post, their much publicized transgressions (granted, one was criminal and one was moral). One became a pariah and the other was wounded financially by endorsement cancellations. Compare that with how revered Herschel Walker and Michael Jordan are viewed. What company wants their product associated with Suh, Fairley, Ray Rice, Pete Rose, Lance Armstrong, etc. versus Peyton Manning, Arnold Palmer, George Foreman, Lebron James, etc.? Do you think more money would have been donated by UGA fans to help an injured white player, or Gales, in the Southern University game?
I discriminate in many ways: the type of people I like to be around, which type of food I order, what type of women I find most appealing/sexy, which bourbon or scotch I prefer, what type of car I like, which type of neighbor I want next to me, etc., etc. But I don’t choose to like, hire, promote, respect, or support anyone based on skin color. I don’t dislike and abhor Barry Obama because of his skin color, it is because of what he stands for. And I support/prefer Condi Rice/Ben Carson/Rubio over hilary/boxer/feinstein because of what they stand for….and it doesn’t matter about skin color or where their ancestors came from. The whole race debate in the country is perpetuated by race baiters who want a divided society, not on facts or the desire to find a solution. I have wanted, and supported, a stipend for all SAs in revenue sports and it had nothing to do with skin color or gender.
Those who support the “great racial divide” theory can fire away all you want, I will not respond to attacks because we all have opinions and this is how I see it. If you hate every bad thing that happens to people of color, don’t attack me, fix the root problems within that group and stop blaming others. I am not guilty of causing their plight, and don’t understand why the leaders do not spend their efforts on rolling up their sleeves nd addressing the real issues. The common reasons why people are poor and disadvantaged in this society rarely vary because of skin color.
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Correct. A vacuum of leadership.
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My neighbor, teaches at the vet school, has a daughter that was president of the African American Club in high school at Cedar Shoals HS. Her senior year, she won a big award for her hard work and effort as president. She was to be presented the award in DC and she was to give a speech. Her parents flew up so they could also attend. Apparently, the presenters did not know that while her parents did emigrate from an African country and she was now an American, she was as white as Bluto. She did not give the speech and she was given her award in private.
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Nailed it!
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The amount of money spent on recruitment plus the demand among fans to recruit the best, essentially junks the idea of romance among college athletes.
Romance in college sports, is when a school holds open try outs among its general already enrolled student population, and from there gets the best and most qualified athletes and hidden gems as they say.
There’s no longer any romance based on the above on most current college athletic programs, there’s probably still some left in high school though.
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Why don’t we just ask Kirby how they handled the disparity in pay amongst the Bama players? Maybe some of the red elephant club business model can be incorporated into the new Georgia Way…
Another option is that all players receive $25k upon graduation and if their team makes a bowl game, players immediately receive a % of the bowl money.
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I have no problem paying players. But let’s not pretend we’re staring at zero.
They’re receiving (ever devaluing) college ‘educations’ valued at 10s & 100s of thousands of dollars, with significantly more support than he average student – academic or otherwise.
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No one pretends the players are starting at zero. Let’s not pretend that the value of the player’s services is remotely near the cost of the scholarship, either.
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Not every player is Nick Chubb
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Not every Apple employee is Tim Cook either and they all get paid something of value with built-in things that all employees receive like health benefits, employee training, etc. Those all sound a lot like the scholarship / room & board jumping off point to me. Those things aren’t free to the employer and can be quite costly, but a salary is still added on top of it because that’s what the buyer of labor (Apple) has determined the seller of labor (the employee) to be worth. Whether it be through collective bargaining or a wide open market, it’s not going to be that hard to figure out what each player is worth and if the scholarship / room & board is what a buyer of their labor (the universities and colleges) deems them worth – that’s where it will end for them. This isn’t as difficult as y’all act like it is. Everybody agrees they’re compensated SOMETHING; the real discussion here is whether that’s fair value or not. For some it is, for some it isn’t. Simple as that. The genie’s already out of the bottle with the sudden COA inflation shenaniganry going on right now in the greater Opelika area and Knoxville. We’re on a clear collision course with players being paid; it’s a matter of whether the schools get out in front of it like EA did or if they get railroaded by Kessler or somebody like him in court as they try to hoard everything for themselves.
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Jay Jacobs would not be installing big ass video screens and charging $110.00 per UGA vs. Auburn tickets for fans to see an empty sideline. The second string right guard has value, too. The NFL and the NBA includes the bench warmers in their calculations of what share of the revenues the players as a group should receive.
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Another way to go would be to outlaw all athletic scholarships, have all coaching provided by unpaid senior players, and charge just enough for admission to cover uniforms, equipment, maintenance, etc. Then things would be the way they were 125 years ago. The NFL would be OK, they can afford a developmental league. The AD’s and coaches could find employment there, so they’d land on their feet. The colleges would no longer be corrupted. ESPN and the networks would switch to pro programming. I do hope Georgia Public Television would carry the Bulldogs so I could still watch them. And yes, it’s easy to write all this since I know it will never happen.
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Ha ha! Crickets ………
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Those on the lower end of the socioeconomic scale regularly have their rights trampled on. Of that I have absolutely no doubt. Racism aside, the idea that cfb is somehow different than any other big business is quaint. EA knew the handwriting was on the wall when they settled. The money spigot was opened with the COA. The combination of competing COAs, lawsuits, competition for talent, etc. will continue to increase player compensation. The transfer rules will gradually ease too. Current players, ex-players, lawyers, politicians, and various hangers-on see the windfall of cfb money and are taking steps to get a piece of that pie. Can’t say I blame em. When guys like McGarity or Schotty are paid far more than professors, the education argument is bologna.
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200 comments, minimum.
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You know the race thing, sometimes it drives me crazy. I think Cam Newton is a showboat clown who should act like he has been there. But I feel the same way about Aaron, discount double check, Rodgers. So am I a racist for thinking Newton is a clown, if I also think Rodgers is a clown as well?
They are both good football players who do not need that crap to be recognized. Peyton and Brady, just raise their hands in the TD sign. Cam Newton acts like an ass when he gets a first down. And Rodgers snapping on his belt looks like a clown.
Do I think College Athletes should be paid? Not a true salary no, but a stipend so they can take their girlfriends out to eat, or buy an xbox game, or hell get a tattoo, sure why not. As long as I can get my NCAA 2017 game, without any current player likenesses or stats that kind of make sense for the current teams. Otherwise, hell no, they killed my favorite video game with this crap.
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I think it’s worth keeping in mind that there’s a difference in saying anyone who opposes player compensation is a racist and saying that people who are motivated by racial animus are more likely to oppose player compensation than not.
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As meaningful an analysis as “he was 4 for 9 at advancing runners to third with no outs between the 3rd and 6th inning against left-handed pitching during night games played on the road.”
Racists don’t want to pay black people….shocker.
It’s only salacious when you imply the inverse, which is really what you are doing here now aren’t you.
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Sorry, but I wasn’t.
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Oh how I look forward to all the Title IX lawyers drag universities into court to explain why the women’s soccer team isn’t getting their cut too!
Pay for play will kill collegiate athletics besides football, M&W’s basketball and softball.
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That’s not a stretch. One of the planners I work with has a daughter at Georgia. Plays sports. She on the equestrian team. Lot of money when into his daughter learning to ride. He has a barn with horse stalls and has invested a lot in horses and riding. He’d like a return on his investing in the education for the daughter that brought a NC to Georgia. No. He ain’t kidding.
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He might not be kidding but he probably draws a few laughs every time he brings that up. Has he ever investigated the net value an equestrian NC is worth to a school? I figure both he and UGA are in the red, his share of the windfall isn’t worth a coffee at Waffle House.
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I have no romance about amateurism and I think the athletes should be paid.
I do find it alarming that racism has become the default position for so many arguments in this country. If you don’t agree with me then I will call you a racist to shut you up. Referring to one study and the comments of Cowherd as somehow proving this premise is ridiculous. It’s click bait that would make the AJC proud. The whole thing is so unsavory as to make me want to begin looking for another sport. What will we have to talk about when all of this gets burned to the ground. I can’t help but feel like we are heading for a 16 team playoff. A pay level or salary cap type system and the university being in name only for the athletes. How many more years before we just walk away? I feel that we are one generation away from a severe decline in CFB. We may already be in the middle of it and just don’t know it. The TV money has blinded everyone. I used to be a Braves season ticket holder until MLB went on strike and cancelled the World Series. I have not been to an MLB game since then. CFB is heading there. how fast that happens for me us up to them. It’s always a lesson about greed when any great thing crashes. This once upon a time was a wonderful thing. Now it’s a mess.
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Nothing was offered as “proof”, just as fodder for discussion. But tell me where you find fault in this observation: “The more negatively a white respondent felt about blacks, the more they opposed paying college athletes.”
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“Nothing was offered as “proof””
Just strikes me as intellectually disingenuous. You say here is a theory and here is their findings and also someone known for bombastic statements making bombastic statements. You are heavily implying something by what you are linking to. I couldn’t even find their actual study. In my previous career I spent a great deal of time reviewing research and found quite often that if the researcher went in looking for something they could almost always find data to support their pre conceived notion. The inverse was also true. If you feel that racism is strongly at play here then just say so. You can’t drop a racism bomb on a segment of readers who disagree with paying players for a variety of reasons and then walk away claiming it was just “fodder”. As to their findings I can’t see the data for myself. I agree with paying players. I don’t have the time or inclination to figure out what that would look like. When I was at UGA I hung out more with the golf team and baseball players so that is more my mental image on college scholarships. Maybe I am an outlier on this topic.
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I’ve got more than 16000 posts here. Do I strike you as someone who has trouble expressing an opinion?
If I wanted to accuse all people opposed to player compensation of being motivated by racial animosity, trust me, I’d have no reluctance to do so.
I’m not implying shit here. I’d say some of you guys are, though.
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I’m implying that you just pigeon holed those that disagree with you on player pay into pretty much two camps 1 camp is the camp of the romantics, you know those fans who are not as evolved in the topic as you and cling to an outdated notion or those that are racist. You seem to be getting awful fired up over this discussion. It was your post but I can see where someone who was against paying players would feel like you just called them simpletons or racists. I agree with pay for play but the arrogance displayed in that post was pretty jaw dropping.
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If being a romantic means being a simpleton, then color me as a dumbass, too, because I was in that camp until a few years ago.
I said in my post that I respect that attitude even if I no longer agree with it. Not sure how that’s arrogant, but YMMV.
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That observation of research findings is dead on accurate. How many minds are led to the slaughter by numbers manipulation? Yet, quoting a “factual” study is used thousands of times a day to make decisions by every business segment, political, group, and “thought police” types. Not saying that was the Senator’s intent, but it does provide comfortable cover for many to cite statistical studies and polls which blur thinking. I also favor paying the players to an extent. Where we draw the lines on how much to pay, or if we pay at all, has nothing to do with the color of their skin and I hate to see that argument used, but it is trendy.
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I agree with this and it’s also why I favor athletes getting paid. Everybody around them has been allowed to be incredibly greedy and become incredibly wealthy from this sport. I struggle to understand why the folks that feel the other way (I absolutely can understand why they don’t like the idea of players being paid, mind you) act like athletes getting paid is what will wreck the whole thing. The presidents and AD’s have already done that by commercializing everything to the extent that they’re squeezing every single penny out of every single rock they can find. I mean – unless people genuinely believe the whole conference re-alignment a few years ago was to benefit the athletes. They made this a multi-billion dollar business, not the players. If they’d been willing to budge on things like NIL or transfer rules, then it might not have had to come to this point. They wanted to make and keep all the money AND control every aspect of the athlete experience. We’re way beyond wanting your cake and eating it at this point.
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Now that the Feds have made company benefits taxable as income, I wonder if our new “employees” will have to claim the value of their enrollment as a benefit when filing taxes each year?
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No more so than every kid on HOPE, no?
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You lost me as a reader of this blog with that post. I know you probably don’t care, but I thought I would tell you anyway. Suggesting that we who don’t want to pay players above the value of their scholarship, training, exposure, and fame may feel this way because a lot of players are black is just too ridiculously insulting for me to spend any more time here. TheDawgbone.com already compiles all the UGA articles in one place anyway. Thanks for being entertaining for a while.
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‘Preciate the righteous indignation, but that’s not what I wrote. Not that I expect you care.
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By the way, since when did college players start getting value for their fame?
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“since when did college players start getting value for their fame?”
See, this is the problem with this players should get paid debate, among others. It is not a binary issue. Players who are famous get value for their fame in the form of any number of special accommodations and opportunities that otherwise would not be afforded — be it look the other way law enforcement (Jamies Winston comes to mind), perpetual second chances afforded to many athletes who can’t seem to stay out of trouble, no-show passing grades & degrees (UNC), getting laid easy and often (basically any hotshot recruit/player), etc., You can argue they should get a % for a jersey that has their number on it, or that the “value” isn’t what you believe it should be, but to say they get no value is over stating the fact by a mile. Among the issues with payment for value in college athletics will be how do you determine the value for a Todd Gurley vs. a Nathan Theus (who ironically got the value of a full ride because his brother was a 5-star LT)?
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Again, I keep asking without getting an answer: you don’t think Nike can’t figure out the difference in value between Gurley and Theus? You don’t think if schools paid players that they couldn’t figure out the math? Don’t be silly.
The issue, for the thousandth time, isn’t that players don’t receive any compensation. It’s that some players don’t receive fair compensation.
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“The issue, for the thousandth time, isn’t that players don’t receive any compensation.”
Agreed, but that is not what you said in the thread that I responded to you. You actually said something that was quite the opposite – thus my response. I don’t disagree that “some players don’t receive fair compensation.” However, I am also not sure what the “fair” system would be. It doesn’t mean you don’t do anything, but I am not sure what that is. I am certain that few would feel like it is fair as there is little in life that is fair, particularly given the arbitrary and subjectivity that goes into defining fair.
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Are you talking about my response to Cojones this morning? If so, I sure didn’t mean the opposite. My apologies for any confusion there.
For me, fairness starts with letting players market their names and likenesses, like anyone else can in this country. The market can sort out what’s fair in that department.
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I was responding specifically to the ““since when did college players start getting value for their fame?” at 7:45PM
“For me, fairness starts with letting players market their names and likenesses, like anyone else can in this country.” I think you and I agree here. If there is specific revenues that can be attributed to a name/likeness then a % should go to the player.
However, I fall out of the camp when we get to the idea of UGA trying to come up with an annual compensation scheme that rewards an Aaron Murray vs. a Faton Bauta — based on their respective fair value. Unless you introduce agents, arbitration and any number of compensation determining vehicles that would quickly fall apart when trying to do it at scale and at an Alabama vs. Bowling Green for instance.
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I was being flippant. Good grief.
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Easy there man. Reading when people are being flip, using sarcasm or tongue-n-cheek is not as easy as with a face-to-face conversation. Internet blogs are no place for subtlety.
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Senator, how will you go on without Jeff?
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Somehow I’ll muddle through.
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I’m not that fragile Senator and I still love the blog and enjoy reading your stuff. Reasonable disagreements are to be expected. In fact I think 2015 was the best year I can remember reading here. Great work and have a great 2016
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A lot of you want to act like you’re rooting for an Ivy League school. For a lot of the 4 and 5 stars, the scholarship means nothing. CFB is just a way to the league. It’s not 1955.
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This post maybe a day too late, but let’s all admit it, the current bunch of athletes particularly in football are but mercenaries of the universities and therefore should be paid.
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